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This Tigger is *so* sad....

65beam

65beam

Donation Time
tigger is sad

i have to agree with you mike . there have been many alpines , harringtons, 69's fastbacks, mg's, tr's, etc that have been rebodied . does that not make them what the title says ? the problem i see with some of the so called tiger experts that complain about a rebody of a tiger done the proper way,are the same ones that won't agree to come up with the proper repair procedures for a tiger . is that greed on their part since the number of cars in existance getting lower makes their cars worth more ?????? or what is their reason ? set an alpine next to a tiger, start taking them apart and pretty soon the bodies are the same. look at them .i guess there would not have been tigers without alpine bodies .a proper conversion can be tac'ed in my opinion and probably has been done more than once and may be done again .
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
I have said this before.. its illegal anywhere in the world to swap ID tags on cars. Make a perfect fake.. but keeps its alpine tags.. if you are welding all the tiger parts into an alpine.. you are converting an alpine.

If you are welding that much into a Tiger.. i guess it depends if you remove or recreate the original tiger differences..

perhaps really good algers or extensively rebuilt tigers could get a TAc as a "continuation car"... i guess the real fun would be to build a tiger race or rally to full FIA spec from an alpine.. then go get HTP papers. If you have done it correctly they should issue with htem..a s they do with certain continuation cars.

Not sure if anyone reads Octane magazine.. but last year there was a great article about the HTP's and the continuation cars by Tony Dron. It was an introduction article about "the orignal hammer, NOS hammer, recreation hammer and look-alike one".. might scan it and post it for members.. is a really nice article.. along the lines of Jim E's post.. btu in a little more detail.
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
OK.. here we are:

selected part of Tony Drons article:

Avoiding names here, there’s a fair chance this column will get printed without my having to spend hours with the company’s legal department. I fear that will come next month, as the editor has asked me to write aspecial article, looking in detail at what’s really happening with reproduction cars in historic motor sport.

When the FIA first put that idea forward, I must say I thought it was a gigantic leg-pull, April Fool’s Day or something. But no, they meant it, it has happened and we must all accept that fact and work out what to do about it. In the long run I have come to believe, against my earlier expectations, it may well prove to be no bad thing.

Let’s look at it this way: we all know about the hammer that had three new shafts and two replacement heads, yet remained the same hammer all along. It’s a bit like that with historic competition cars, except that here you have to imagine a whole row of hammers.

The first hammer is original in every way and looks perfect because it has hardly ever been used. Whatever you do, don’t use it. It looks perfect but the shaft has shrunk and there is hidden rust inside the head. Try hitting a nail and it might fly apart, with the risk of serious injury. Put it in a museum of hammers.

Hammer number two is also original but it has had regular light use with proper maintenance. It is perfect. We all want this beautiful hammer. The third hammer is our classic, the one that has had three new shafts and two new heads but remains the ‘original’ hammer. All right, it is fine.

Now we come to a completely new hammer, which has been made exactly like the first hammer was all those years ago. We used to disapprove of this hammer but are beginning to wonder whether we shouldn’t accept it, so long as it’s correctly constructed and we always know what it is.

Hammer number five is described as being exactly like the last one but it has been badly made. It’s scrap but can we spot that? The next hammer in our row looks exactly like the first hammer but it
is made of materials that did not exist when that first hammer was made. The shaft is lighter and stronger, the head harder and denser. It drives in nails like you wouldn’t believe, outperforming the original even when swung by an average DIY enthusiast. We worry about this hammer.

The final hammer began as an original, was destroyed in a bad accident and has been rebuilt exactly like the new hammer in our last paragraph. According to the paperwork, however, it is simply the original hammer.

for the full article:

http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/columnists/222609/racing_line_april_2008.html
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
tigger

michael,

maybe down under you don't swap vin tags but it gets done in many places in the rest of the world . get real!!! you can do it by going thru the proper channels .
 
6

65tiger1971

Looking at a 1967 Tiger on Saturday- help

I am going to be looking at a "1967 Tiger" this weekend. This car has been off the road for 30 years, some rust but seems origional. Any quick ways to tell it from an Alger or a Mk1a ?
Thanks
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
65tiger1971 said:
I am going to be looking at a "1967 Tiger" this weekend. This car has been off the road for 30 years, some rust but seems origional. Any quick ways to tell it from an Alger or a Mk1a ?
Thanks
Click to expand...


well a 67 car is likely to BE A "MKIA" the IA's have the fresh air vents in the front scuttle, the vynil hood bad covering the soft top. They will have sqaure corner doors and bonnet (early IA's can have a round corner boot) the chassis number for a IA will be B38... there are a bunch of other details they will have but they could be changed.. this stuff should confirm a IA.

As for alger.. well.. where to start.. and as mentioend. if done right.. these could be there.

check the welding on the front guard supports on the arches, the generator reliefe, the spare tyre hold down in the boot, there should be no evidence of a battery box ever fitted in the rear parcel shelf.. just hole where a fuel pump is suspended, a special set of riverts holding in the VIN tag. Go look at norm miller www.rootes1.com website and you will get a decent run down
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
65beam said:
michael,

maybe down under you don't swap vin tags but it gets done in many places in the rest of the world . get real!!! you can do it by going thru the proper channels .
Click to expand...


That may be the case i guess.. but not really where we are at in this discussion.. the people swapping tags in this case are trying to pass the car off as an original.. not rebodied.. they do not want any association with a rebody. they want to sell it to you as "Sunbeam Tiger B.... JAL..." that rolled off the line way back when.
 
MikeH

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
I would venture that it is safe to say that as long as there are specialty cars that are based on regular production models, there will be rebodied "restorations" If you look at the number of the Shelby Mustangs, Hemi-Cudas, GTO Judges, Z28 Camaros, Chevy SS anything, etc that show up in car corals and swap meets, it's hard to believe that they all are original factory cars.
 
Jim E

Jim E

Donation Time
65tiger1971 said:
I am going to be looking at a "1967 Tiger" this weekend. This car has been off the road for 30 years, some rust but seems origional. Any quick ways to tell it from an Alger or a Mk1a ?
Thanks
Click to expand...

If it went off the road in say 1979 it is not likely it has been rebodied. Guess it is posible the car was totalled when new and someone stuffed the Tiger bits in an Alpine.
 
Sownman

Sownman

Donation Time
65tiger1971 said:
I am going to be looking at a "1967 Tiger" this weekend. This car has been off the road for 30 years, some rust but seems origional. Any quick ways to tell it from an Alger or a Mk1a ?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Go to Norm Millers website. He keeps the Tiger registry and is a very good guy
as well. Scroll down the page to "The Fraud" he gives some clues as to authenticity. Look round the rest of his site for pictures of proper chassis tags and rivets. He also has an inquiry form where you can send him the Chassis and JAL numbers and even attach pictures of the tags. He will answer you with info he may have on authenticity of the car. He knows lots.

One of my first shopping stops was to a store in W Los Angeles that had 2 Tigers for sale. A Mk 1 and a Mk 2. He knew both cars. The Mk1 was legit and needed too much work for the asking price. The Mk2 was not a Tiger at all.

http://www.rootes1.com/
 
A

agmason

Donation Time
65sunbeam,

"set an alpine next to a tiger, start taking them apart and pretty soon the bodies are the same. look at them .i guess there would not have been tigers without alpine bodies .a proper conversion can be tac'ed in my opinion and probably has been done more than once and may be done again ."


Obviously, you have never compared a Alpine body with a proper Tiger body. There are differences that were planned by Rootes before the body and chassis were ever built. As you term it "a proper conversion can be tac'ed", well many have tried and no one has suceeded.

I believe you own a Harrington Alpine, correct? So with your way of thinking I can take a Harrington fiberglass top and place it on any Alpine and call it a genuine Harrington Alpine? Do you disagree?
 
A

agmason

Donation Time
65sunbeam,

"maybe down under you don't swap vin tags but it gets done in many places in the rest of the world . get real!!! you can do it by going thru the proper channels ."

What part of the world does this happen? It doesn't happen in the USA or the rest of the world unless you are commiting some type of fraud. What would be the point of swapping vin tags unless you want to fool someone.
 
A

agmason

Donation Time
RootesRacer,

"Huh?

You must be joking.

With that much money on the line it can and has been done."

"D'oh!" No, the joke is on you. If you have knowledge of a reconstituted Alpine that is now a Tiger and has passed TAC, then let us know. I suppose you think all you do is slap a few emblems that say Tiger on the body, plus install a V8 engine (make sure it is a Ford motor), and away you go. There is a little more to it then that.
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
tigger

dude,
are you a NEWBIE to the sunbeam world ? there are tigers out there that have been transplanted and have been tac'ed . i was at the shop today and did take a look at my alpine and the tiger setting beside it . bare metal restorations being done to both . over the years i have seen many tigers in a bare metal state .take away the tiger specific parts and they're the same .i've seen tigers that had bigger hammer dents in the area for the generator . look at a lot of the early tigers and you will find hammer marks . peel away the voltage regulator mount for the mk 1 tigers and look at the captive nuts for the alpine regulator hanging inside . what about the welded on clamps for brake and fuel lines ? there were pieces added to the alpine body for the tiger and some of the alpine pieces are still there . the list goes on and on .this discussion could go on forever. i looked at a tiger today that is an early car and the front valance still has the tube for the alpine engine crank .and it's the original .i remember the look on one guys face when i told him we converted a mk 2 back to an alpine ! are you saying that could not be done ? and for your info , you can buy new frames and new bodies for other british cars . and go thru the proper channels and transfer the titles . my 69GT has mk 2 tiger wheel well mouldings on it . is that wrong ? anything can be done and trust me, a lot of us that were driving sunbeams from new know who is capable of repairing a tiger to pristine shape and do it right .it may take a lot of time and money but it can be done .oh , in the late 60's into the seventies when you could still buy parts at a dealer, if you ordered say an A arm ,you probably got an alpine part that you made changes to in order to use it on the tiger . the same happened on quite a few parts .if you have the time and the money anything can be done and has . that's the opinion of an owner that drove his first sunbeam at the age of 16 and is still driving and buying them at age 59 . 21 cars later . when will i quit ???? that's all i've got to say about it .
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
dude234 said:
RootesRacer,

"Huh?

You must be joking.

With that much money on the line it can and has been done."

"D'oh!" No, the joke is on you. If you have knowledge of a reconstituted Alpine that is now a Tiger and has passed TAC, then let us know. I suppose you think all you do is slap a few emblems that say Tiger on the body, plus install a V8 engine (make sure it is a Ford motor), and away you go. There is a little more to it then that.
Click to expand...

Oh Dude, you just made my arse list.


How arrogant and ignorant of you to make these statements?
You TOTALLY ignore the level of craftsmanship and financial incentive towards the re-manufacturing of vehicles like this. A good body man that knows the special characteristics that allow TAC to "certify" a tiger can emulate the required details and workmanship to allow passage. There ARE people who have the knowledge and skill set for the job.

I know full well what a tiger is with respect to an alpine, its a lot closer than what you think it is. Ive seen my fair share of clones, re-bodies and pretty damn good imitations.

Do you really believe that TAC is the do all end all certification of tigers?
 
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