SV rear axle seal?

[Alpine 1789]

So the second problem the inspectors found on my SV (see http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?p=49166&posted=1#post49166) was some oil/fluid around the right side rear brake drums. At first they thought it might be brake fluid, but they later decided that it was the rear axle seal. I agree re: the brake fluid, as I watched them poke around the wheel cylinder (which is relatively new) and the boot looked clean and didn't seem to be containing any fluid. One mechanic said the fluid smelled like gear oil; I should have sniffed it too but didn't. Their conclusion was the rear axle seal, which makes sense.

The only problem with that diagnosis is that I can't see where the SV has a separate rear seal. The WSM shows a combination "Bearing/Oil Seal", which is what VB shows in their catalog. SS sells seals for the SI-IV, but only lists the bearing for the SV. So, do I need to replace the bearing in order to replace the seal? The rear axle was completely rebuilt about 5 years ago, so its hard to believe it would need new rear bearings.

As always, thanks!

 

[RootesRacer]

The bearing itself on an SV is both sealed internally, and also has a o-ring seal on the outside diameter to keep oil in the housing from leaking around the bearing.

One of the two seals has failed.

 

[Alpine 1789]

The bearing itself on an SV is both sealed internally, and also has a o-ring seal on the outside diameter to keep oil in the housing from leaking around the bearing.

One of the two seals has failed.

That makes sense. Thanks. Is there any harm in just replacing the one that has gone bad, or do I need to do both of them?

The WSM doesn't seem to cover just replacing the bearing. Do I have to remove the whole axle, or can I just pull the hub and get at it?

 

[Alpine Addict]

I believe SS does have the seals that go on the outside of the bearings.

 

[Derek]

Jim, I recently went through this on my 67 SV. Yes you must pull the hub to get at the bearing, this can go well or be a major pain, my left (the leaking one) came off after 3 tries, the right took 3 days of trying. Yes the axles must come out to remove the bearing, pulling the axles is easy but the bearing can be another issue. My left came off with ease and the right I had to take to a shop with a 20 ton press to get off. the WSM 145 shows what needs to be done, and having the right tools is a must.

Derek

 

[65beam]

oil seal

there is no real reason to change the bearing if the seal is leaking . the seal is a rubber o ring that can be replaced. unbolt the backing plate from the axle housing,put a slide hammer on the hub and pull the entire axle out and change the o ring. glue the paper gaskets to the axle housing,slide the axle back in and bolt it up. you might have to disconnect the brake line prior to pulling the axle . not hard at all ! by the way the part # for the o ring from SS is R9107158 @ 3.85 each . just changed two this week prior to setting the rear end under the 69 .

 

[RootesRacer]

there is no real reason to change the bearing if the seal is leaking . the seal is a rubber o ring that can be replaced. unbolt the backing plate from the axle housing,put a slide hammer on the hub and pull the entire axle out and change the o ring. glue the paper gaskets to the axle housing,slide the axle back in and bolt it up. you might have to disconnect the brake line prior to pulling the axle . not hard at all ! by the way the part # for the o ring from SS is R9107158 @ 3.85 each . just changed two this week prior to setting the rear end under the 69 .

Keep in mind though that this is not the only seal, the more likely seal to leak is the one inside the bearing, which you cant see or replace.

 

[Jim E]

I have only seen one car with the O ring on the bearing, the rest were the lipped seal that rides on the hub. Just mentioning that because you may want to take it apart before ordering parts.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks everyone, for the advice. Since I’ve got two jobs ahead of me, I will follow Jim’s recommendation and pull the axle first. That way I can focus on the ball joints while I wait for the necessary (and correct) axle parts to arrive. I am sure I will have additional questions once I get started, but reading the suggestions here and the WSM section on removing the axle have already given me a bunch of them:

1. This is probably obvious, but just to be sure, is the back plate the only thing holding the axle in? It certainly appears that way from the WSM.
2. Is there a good alternative to using a slide hammer? I certainly don’t have one; is this something tool rental places often carry, or is a suitable one easy and cheap to buy?
3. Will I be able to tell exactly what has failed when I pull the axle? If the bearing has an inner seal and an o-ring, can you see the inner seal?
4. Do I need to order any gaskets for the back plate? The WSM doesn’t specify anything, but it looks like there is one shown in the diagram.
5. Should I plan on replacing anything else while I am at it?
6. The process outlined in the WSM for replacing the bearing looks very complicated and is full of references to special tools. Other than possibly needing a machine shop to press out the bearing, what else will I need?
7. Finally, and probably most importantly, is this one of those jobs best left to a professional?

Thanks again,

 

[Derek]

Thanks everyone, for the advice. Since I’ve got two jobs ahead of me, I will follow Jim’s recommendation and pull the axle first. That way I can focus on the ball joints while I wait for the necessary (and correct) axle parts to arrive. I am sure I will have additional questions once I get started, but reading the suggestions here and the WSM section on removing the axle have already given me a bunch of them:

Jim I did this and it was my first go at a rear axle. It is not hard, but here is what I learned..

1. This is probably obvious, but just to be sure, is the back plate the only thing holding the axle in? It certainly appears that way from the WSM.
   yes ! and the brake lines need to be disconnected
2. Is there a good alternative to using a slide hammer? I certainly don’t have one; is this something tool rental places often carry, or is a suitable one easy and cheap to buy?
   I got a free "rental" from Auto Zone, the slide hammer is no problem but the pulling plate was a bit of a trick, the Alpine hubs have a tight bolt spacing (if you have wires you will need and adapter of some type) the axles came out of mine with very little effort, I could probebly have done them without the slide hammer.
3. Will I be able to tell exactly what has failed when I pull the axle? If the bearing has an inner seal and an o-ring, can you see the inner seal?
   No, mine have the o-ring and they looked fine so I assume it was the inner seal, you cant see it so I replaced both sides just to be sure when I had the brakes off anyway.
4. Do I need to order any gaskets for the back plate? The WSM doesn’t specify anything, but it looks like there is one shown in the diagram.
   No they come with the bearings, the sludge guards are reusable
5. Should I plan on replacing anything else while I am at it?
   You'll have the brakes disconneted so if they need anything this is a good time. Change the Diff oil.
6. The process outlined in the WSM for replacing the bearing looks very complicated and is full of references to special tools. Other than possibly needing a machine shop to press out the bearing, what else will I need?
   You need a hub puller I got one from Stars and Stripes Tools for $50 and it worked great, just remember the hubs may never have been off and after 40+ years my take some time to pop off, as I said one did came off fine the other took 3 days of effort, I would apply penetrating oil and then torque down the hub puller and leave it under tension over night and try in the morning / evening..it worked after 3 days of this !
   I did not have the securing plate RG.188D so I put the wheel on the car and put it in contact with the ground to loosen the hub nut.
   I bought an inexpensive split bearing puller to pull the bearing, but if I had to do it again I would just have the shop pull them, he charged me $10 and press the new bearings on. Warn them not to move the sleeve on the axle, The WSM says to pull it 1/32 " to put the bearing under compression, I spoke on the phone to a couple of sources that said DONT MOVE IT, I didn't and it works fine, someone out there certainly knows more than I do and will have another opinion on this but I was concerned about ruining the axles so this is the way I went.
7. 
   Finally, and probably most importantly, is this one of those jobs best left to a professional?
   It's not hard but can be very frustrating, esp if the hubs don't cooperate, I had no choice as there is not a shop near me that has any more expertise than I do with an Alpine..I have 6 months! The shop I took the axles to works on Jags and Healey's and was not too keen on touching my Alpine ?
   I have my car as a hobby and working on it is part of the fun / agony, If the hubs pop off the whole job can be done in an afternoon, if not
   and you need to have the car on line fast, pay the $$ and get someone else to do it.

Thanks again,

The front end will be in my future so I look forward to hearing how this goes for you.

Regards Derek

 

[65beam]

rear axle

it's really good that rootes built in safeguards to help on things such as oil leaks from the rear axle. i guess if they couldn't find a better way to seal it ,they designed a way to funnel the oil away from the brakes. that 's the flange that bolts to the backing plate to carry the leaking oil away and out. i guess we folks in ohio are fortunate because we have no testing or inspections of any kind and it's cheap to license our cars. i guess the inspectors in some states don't know that oil leaks are part of a british car .also jim,all series 5 cars had the sealed bearing and they continued on for several years after. and i have never had a bearing start to leak.it's always been the o ring.that's just my opinion .plus too many years of owning these cars . after all they are 40 something years old and i don't worry about a little leak,it keeps rust to a minimum .

 

[jumpinjan]

Bob,
Yes, I agree. Stand up to them, and tell them this is normal for a British build in the 1960s.

 

[Ken Ellis]

Jim,
Not that I would ever advocate such a measure, but is it an absolute requirement for the rear end to be fully topped up at the time of the inspection? I wonder if you were more towards the low end of the 'acceptable range of fluid levels' if there would be any out there to leak out? Now, if your inspection station is more than two blocks up the road, then I wouldn't chance it. But if it's nice and close, and no one but you will be at the wheel, and it's just a 'look-see' test, I'd be tempted...

Ken
(in Inquisition-free Ohio)

 

[Alpine 1789]

I've been out of town since I last posted here, but got home tonight and headed out to the garage for a better look at what I am up against. The leakage isn't too bad, but it is definitely there. I looks like it could be the wheel cylinder, but I don't think so. One of the pictures below shows the adjuster that sits right below the cylinder and that is completely dry. The photo of the inner hub is a little hard to see, but it does look like oil is coming through there.

Do these pictures suggest anything to anyone?

Also, I didn't get any answers to my previous questions; above all else, I'd like to know if I am likely to regret even starting down this path. Help! please.

p.s. Ken: unfortunately, the inspection station is too far away for that to work. Maybe.

 

[alpine_64]

jim,

There is a backing plate with a hole in it, if the paper gaskets used on the hubs are blocking it, or if someone has sealed over the hole partially oil will find its way onto the drums.. someone had selaed over mine with selastic and until i worked it out i always had oil weaping onto the drums.

 

[Alpine 1789]

jim,

There is a backing plate with a hole in it, if the paper gaskets used on the hubs are blocking it, or if someone has sealed over the hole partially oil will find its way onto the drums.. someone had selaed over mine with selastic and until i worked it out i always had oil weaping onto the drums.

Hi, Michael. How's tomorrow? Any important world developments coming our way we should know about?

I don't think this is likely, as the rebuild was not an amateur job, but it's worth checking before I start tearing things apart. Where is this hole?

 

[alpine_64]

Hi, Michael. How's tomorrow?
Well if the first part of the day is to go by... stay in yesterday.

Any important world developments coming our way we should know about?
Beweare the jade monkey.... you'll know what i mean when you see it.

I don't think this is likely, as the rebuild was not an amateur job, but it's worth checking before I start tearing things apart.
Mine was too.. and they made that mistake... i think some people dont understand that the paper gaskets are shims, and that the holes are not just to allow for bolts.. but there is one for allowing the oil to drain back out.. btw.. make sure people have not replaced the close tollerence bolts with normal ones!

Where is this hole?
If i was another member of thiss board i'd make some stupid joke.. instead i will answer the question.. i think iots the backing plate on the drum that has a hole to allow oil to drain back out so as not to glaze the drums.. if you have the gaskets for the rear axel (SV ones are different from the others!) there are 5 holes.. 4 for the bolts to pass through the 5th should align to the drain point i am talking about.

thats about as good an answer as i can give you at the moment.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks Michael. I spent some time working on it today and removed the brake shoes and cleaned everything up to give me a better look. I think I see the drain hole you are talking about, but suspect it is a little different on a SV. There are currently 5 bolts that hold the backing plate on to the axle and I have a hard time believing that one of these is meant to be left open. The five bolts are in an even pentagon shaped pattern and all look like they belong there. However, there is about a 1/4 hole at the bottom (halfway between the two lower bolts) that looks like it could be what you are talking about. I poked around it a bit with a 3/32 drill bit and it doesn't feel like there is a gasket inside it. I can feel what I think is another smaller hole in there, but it would have to be smaller than 3/32. It may be clogged up, but before I do any serious poking around I figured I should check here to see 1) if that is the right place and 2) how wide the drain hole is. Does anyone know?

I am also optimistic that I may have found and fixed the problem. I tried tightening the bolts holding the backing plate and while they were reasonably tight, it wasn't hard to further tighten them and one of the lower ones was a bit looser than the others. I am hoping that this could be the source of the problem. I cleaned everything well and am letting it all sit for now. I'll look for any seepage tomorrow and if not will put the brakes back on and go for a drive. I'll be sure to drive at least as far as from here to the inspection station, just to be safe.

BTW: one additional question: there was a small amount of glazing on the brake shoes, but the easily cleaned up with a little brake cleaning fluid. The inspection mechanic made some comment about not being supposed to clean shoes. Is there any reason not to re-use them? They are practically new.

 

[Ken Ellis]

Jim,
Since it would probably be prudent to tighten up the bolts on the other side as well,
I'd take ten minutes and switch the shoes to the other side. That way, when he opens up the side he knows was leaking, he'll see nice dry shoes. If he even looks at the other side, any stain won't be supported by visible oil leaks, so no problem. A few hard stops will burn off any residue, I would think... or drive around the block with the parking brake on.

I think the issue of not cleaning brake lining material is more important if the material is really saturated -- waterlogged -- but with oil or brake fluid. I wouldn't hesitate to reuse shoes that were just exposed to minor dripping, if cleaned with brake cleaner and put back into normal service, especially since they're on the rear. The ones on my car have that heritage and patina, and they work quite well.

I get used to driving my very heavy truck, and the braking distances required for it. When I hop in the Alpine, I'm surprised at how quickly it can be stopped, with no ABS, no squealing tires, and no loss of control. It's pretty amazing. I'm pretty sure that, if my one pair of 'cleaned' rear linings were not pulling their weight, that there would be issues in very fast stops. Anyway, that's what I've observed. YMMV.

Good luck!
Ken

 

[Alpine 1789]

I now know a little more about what's going on, I think. After letting the car sit for a day and a half, I can clearly see where its leaking from. My first thought was that this means it is simply the dust cover gasket, but then realized that there probably shouldn't be any gear oil behind that gasket, which brings me back to the bearing seals.

Before I pull things apart, can anyone confirm my assumption, or suggest a new one?

Thanks.