New Sunbeam - No Electric

[tomscobra]

Trying to start it

I took the advice below and I am trying to start it with starter fluid. I wants to start, but I do not think it is getting enough fluid.

The conclusion I am drawing from this is that I need to rebuild the fuel pump and carbs as planned and that the electrical is ok.

Here is a quick video of it trying to start.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tomscobradfw?feature=mhee

Please tell me what you think.

 

[tony perrett]

I'm sure that you already checked but are the plug leads in the correct order?

 

[tomscobra]

New issue

When I pulled top off the fuel pump, there were what appeared to be black paint peels. I have heard that there is a issue with the gas tanks being painted on the inside and that they can peel and plug things up.

It appears I have this issue.

 

[mferris]

FWIW - working on my first restoration project - took me a month to figure out the mysterious ways of flaking tanks.

Although my intake manifold was pooling with gas - it turned out that the fuel line was being restricted by paint flakes from the tanks. So while it seemed like I had an oversupply of gas - the restriction was causing a vacuum to build up - and when the vacuum built up enough, it would get sucked through and readily flood the engine (including blowing by the regulator that I had put in).

Next time I do this - I will drain and inspect the tanks before I even attempt to start the car.

Por-15 is your friend.

 

[Bill Blue]

Yeah, I think the problem is fuel. To be sure, pour a teaspoonfull of gasoline into each carb, then start it. It should start and run nicley for a few seconds. If it does not, you have an ignition problem. Starter fluid contains ether and will fire off when gasoline will not. That's why it is starter fluid.

Bill

 

[tomscobra]

Still not running

Ok, replaced the o rings (definitely needed them) and rebuilt the fuel pump. Pulled tanks and did POR15, installed new fuel line between pump and carb. installed in line filter by rear diff just ahead of the trunk. Also blow out gas line from pump to filter location.

New symtoms:

I am not getting any fuel in the pump. Maybe had some stuff in the line in the trunk and it plugged the filter? Also, I will need to check and see if I reinstalled the spacer.

When I rebuilt the carbs there was no oil in the top. Is the top with the black knob called the dash pot? What kind of oil do I put in the top and how much oil?

Thanks for your help

 

[RootesRooter]

Hope you didn't leave out the spacer. The pump arm will bust in no time.

If the pump's OK, did you install the fuel filter backwards?

The Strombergs' stock oil is very thin - about sewing machine oil viscosity. Any motor oil will do in a pinch though. If the carbs are worn, you might find yourself topping off that oil regularly.

Also on the Strombergs: not replacing the fuel inlet needle valves after they've sat for so long almost guarantees the carbs won't run at 100% (once you get it running).

 

[tomscobra]

Good thought on the filter, but I checked that yesterday and it is ok

 

[Alpine 1789]

Did you blow out your fuel line? If not, disconnect it at the tank junction pipe and at the fuel pump. Then blow about 10 lbs of air through the line from the pump end back. I once did that (before I cleaned and lined my tanks) and had a momentary nothing, then blew out a plug of paint flakes and gunk.

 

[tomscobra]

Timing Issue?

I have resolved the fuel issues and still not starting. I prepared a couple vidoes that show where the dist is point at 8 degrees btdc, at tdc and when the points open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wchZlv0ZOyI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFkjNNZXLk&feature=plcp

What I think needs to happen at this point is to pull the dist out and click it back 2 or 3 clicks until the points open at the right time.

Is there anything I need to know about pulling the dist out? Any trick or pitfall on a sunbeam.

Please advise, thanks.

 

[Tom H]

Tom said,

What I think needs to happen at this point is to pull the dist out and click it back 2 or 3 clicks until the points open at the right time.

Not sure what you mean by "click it back 2 or 3 clicks". There is no need to pull the dist in order to adjust the timing. Just loosen the clamp, and turn the dist. No clicking involved.

And note that if you pull the dist, you'll see that it only fits into the oil pump shaft in one position. If you are thinking that you need to change the meshing position with the oil pump gear (and thus change the timing a bunch), understand that doing so requires pulling the oil pump, after removing the sump. No need to do that !

Tom H

 

[tomscobra]

The vacuum canister will not allow me to adjust it as much as needed. It is off a bunch.

 

[RootesRooter]

If after loosening the pinch bolt and swiveling the dizzy as far it will go in either direction, it still doesn't want to run, try rotating the spark plug wires on the cap 90 degrees at a time and swiveling again.

 

[agmason54]

Old Sunbeam- no sparkem at right hole

Tom
This is old school but it never fails. I put the distributor about where it ought to be then pull #1spark plug. With your finger in the hole or a piece of paper crank the motor when you feel compression or the paper pops out stop and turn the motor by hand to bring #1 piston on top. I use the dipstick for a feeler. You have now #1 at TDC.Put the timing mark on the pulley at 6 degrees before TDC. Look where the rotor is pointing and put #1 spark plug wire there and the rest go counterclockwise 342. It should now run. Someone was into the oil pump and got the dist gear drive in the wrong position. No biggie.Half of Alpine engines are like this and I have never had to pull a pan to make one run. I swap a lot of distributors back and forth and sometimes forget where number one is on each engine and this is my way to find it. I know where it should be but that is not always the case.
Show it who's boss!!
Agm

 

[Tom H]

Ahah, Yes, I can see that in the video. Two things to try.

1) have you turned the vernier adjust - the thumb screw adj- as far advanced as you can go? Note that each full turn of that knob changes the timing by 3 deg. It looks like you need to advance about 16 Deg - from 8 ATDC to 8 BTDC.

2) If this does not work, then maybe the previous owner DID put the oil pump shaft off by one gear tooth. If so then the easiest fix is to rotate the dist about 75 Deg in the direction you CAN move it and then relocate the plug wires by 90 deg.

Tom

And Al's suggestion to verify the TDC position is a good idea

 

[Tom H]

Tom, from what I can see in photos, it appears that the gear has 11 teeth. So if the oil pump was installed one tooth off, it would be about 33 deg off. So if the vaccum housing keeps you about 15 deg away from achieving correct static timing, then indeed it may be off one tooth. As I and others have suggested the simplest solution for that is to unclamp the dist, rotate it about 75 deg clockwise (90-15=75), relocate all the plug wires one position counterclockwise, and then adjust the dist position for specified static timing (6 to10 deg BTDC)

Tom

 

[tomscobra]

Thanks for the responses. I will try several of the suggestions next weekend.

I think I understand the issue now, so I should be able to get it running.

 

[tomscobra]

Sunbeam Running.....Kinda

Ok, got it running, but it does not sound good. Here is what I did to get it running.

*I adjusted the points so they would open sooner
*Primed the gas in the rear carb

At 1 point I mistakenly unseated the dist and spun it around and re seated it. Do I have a possible issue with the oil pump?

Other Issues noted
* Engine is shaking bad (not from running rough), my guess is that either the trans or the motor mounts are shot.
* Carb linkage is sloppy due to not having the right size bolts for the air cleaners. The PO had 8M Course bolts that are too small. Any idea what size bolts for the air cleaners.
* brakes are spongy, might need to bleed
* Lots of valve noise
* It will not start when cold without priming the carbs, so maybe I still have a gas issue (might be due to sloppy linkage).

Heres a video of it running

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAfEEhrBMwg

 

[Greggers]

Having just checked, my air cleaner bolts appear to be 5/16-24. But then again, if a PO was able to stick course bolts in there, who knows what your carbs are tapped (or crossthreaded) to now.

As for length, your air cleaners look to be about 3/4" thicker than mine, so the length of my air cleaner bolts is probably irrelevant.

 

[agmason54]

Tom
Forget the air cleaners for now... Make it run on one carb at a time by removing the 2 front plug wires and then the back two.Does one run run better than the other? If so I would spray start starter fluid around the intake manifold and carb bases. If it improves then you are sucking air(vacuum leak). But before that I would turn the distributor around while its running.If this helps then its out of time but you are in the ball park. From what I could hear it did not sound all that bad. Many other things like unsyncro-ed carbs, weak fuel pump, bum ignition will make it run rough. When I fire up an unknown engine I install a known running 2barrel carb set-up, a known running distributor and a remote fuel tank to the pump.This way there is little to guess about on the outside of the engine after all it can only be one of two things-fuel and ignition. My motto is 90% of carbuator problems are ignition and I despise Stromberg carbs. I have mashed them flat and shot at them on a fence post.
Good luck
Al
Ps watch it run in the dark