More problems!

[Andrew]

I am doing my best to get my car ready for the long trip to the Invasion.
Well, now I may have found another problem that makes me worry a little.
I just fixed my oil pan problem, changed the oil in the diff, added a oil cooler, fixed my horn electrical problem and put my steering column back together, all is well.
I was looking to flush the rad so after draining the coolant I filled it back up with water and took the car out for a little jaunt. She is running very well with good oil pressure and at a good temp.
I then went to drain the water out of the rad again it was looking a little cloudy or almost milky!
Now I am worried about my head gasket! I am going to fill the rad up with water again and go for another little jaunt, if I find it cloudy or milky again can I assume that I have a head gasket problem?

Should I just install a new head gasket to ensure that things are ok? I have 4 sets of gaskets on hand so I have all the parts but I have never changes a head gasket.

I can only assume that if I undertake this gasket change, I may find it a difficult job. Due to the fact that the head is aluminum, should take the head off by slowly alternating the removal of the fasteners so as not to warp the head? Are there any other tricks or important things I should know?

Can I check to see if the head is warped or requiring a resurface just by placing a metal rule on it edge across the heads surface? What type of clearance can be tolerated across its surface?
I believe my Sunbeam manuals have all the torque setting for the head and so on but I have no idea what I should be looking for if there is a problem.

I am trying hard to make the car ready for this years invasion, any help to this student of automotive mechanics would be appreciated.

 

[Nickodell]

Try draining radiator and block and refilling with a half cup of laundry detergent (not dishwasher liquid) in and run the engine for 10 minutes make sure heater valve is open). Then drain and refill with plain water and run for another 10. The detergent will remove any grease or oil that may have been left in the cooling system.

Then drain and repeat the plain water, but this time run the engine with the radiator cap off. If you have a blown gasket you'll almost certainly get bubbles, foam etc. in the coolant sufficient to come out of the filler. Also, check compression on each cylinder. A blown gasket should show a drop in that cylinder more than 25+ psi below the average for the others. Of course, if it's blown between two cylinders, you may find two adjacent ones with compression 25+ psi below the other two. If everything checks out OK, drain one last time and refill with water/antifreeze.

I don't think you need to follow any sequence when removing the head hold-down studs/nuts, only when re-torquing on replacement.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

I don't think you need to follow any sequence when removing the head hold-down studs/nuts, only when re-torquing on replacement.

Actually it is good practice to un-torque a head opposite of the tightening sequence.
That being said, I dought you have a head gasket problem. Sounds more like crud in the system, also plain water will be more prone to cavitate through the water pump, making it full of air and white looking.
If you had a head gasket problem it would be apparent from the exhaust.
No worries!

 

[jumpinjan]

I cannot see how oil can get into the cooling system.
Here are my findings (indications to look for) of a blown head gasket..
Coolent getting into the engine:
1) coolent in oil (milk shake colored oil)
2) coolent in combustion chamber (steam out the exhaust)
Exhaust gases in the coolent system:
1) Coolent smells like exhaust gases
2) Coolent discharging into overflow talk or vent for no reseason (pressure buildup in coolent system due to exhaust gases
3) Suddenly, overheating for no reason (half gas/half coolent in head)

 

[Nickodell]

I cannot see how oil can get into the cooling system.

Andrew's thread was originally titled: My first real rebuild - out with the engine! If you're rebuilding an engine, or even just replacing the head, you can get some oil into the block coolant spaces. Also, it's rare, but possible for an oil-burning engine to inject oil into the cooling system via a gasket blown between combustion chamber and coolant hole; I've had it happen. Even if it's not using excessive oil, but just injecting products of combustion, that's likely to make the coolant milky.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

I'm hoping and betting for Andrews sake that it is air, not oil.
I have seen this when running plain water before.
With NO other problems being apparent, this should go away with filling of a proper anti-freeze/water mix.
Andrew, fill it back up and drive the hell out of it. You have 10 plus weeks before the invasion. If you spend all your time looking for Gremlins, the Gremlins will surely find you!

 

[Andrew]

Well I am not sure what is up!
I did the soap thing and then flushed the system a couple of times. I then added fresh water and ran it up to temperature and hey.....no bubbles.
The system looks clean and I wonder why it was milky before. I have no idea what the past owner may have done.

I took out my trusty old.....very old compression gauge (this one you have to hold in by hand, made by GMC 1930/1940 era). It is a cool old tool, the instructions show the minimum pressures for Auburn, Crosley, Hudson, Humpmobile, Lfayette, LaSalle, Terraplane, Zepyr and so on (back to the readings).

As I said this is an old tool and I am not sure if it reads correctly but across the 4 cylinders with the engine cold it averaged 108.75 lbs (105/115/110/105).
The pressures do not even come near what my workshop manual says 160/170 lbs average. So my readings show my engines compression is about 70% of what it should be. I should get a new compression gauge but at least I know that there is not a great deal of change across the cylinders.

Could anyone tell me the cooling capacity that antifreeze has compared to straight water. I ask this as the car ran a little hot with straight water. Is it best to run 100% antifreeze in the cooling system?

I guess I will run the car for a week to see what happens. I will watch the temp, oil pressure and rad level. I just do not wish to hurt the engine.

Thanks for all the help guys.
Regards,
Andrew

 

[skywords]

Andrew
I don't remember if this was a complete rebuild but if it was you won't see full compression till the rings are fully seated. The readings don't seem far enough apart to point to any one cylinder.

I like 50/50 mix on the Glycol and distilled water.

It will run hotter during break in. Vary the speeds.

 

[serIIalpine]

I learned recently that when doing a compression test that you must turn over the engine with the throttle open fully.

This may be the reason for your low #s.

Good luck

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[Nickodell]

Andrew: pure water has the highest cooling caacity, or specific heat (in layman's terms, the ability of a given amount to absorb heat) of all substances. In fact, it is used as the unit of specific heat. As an example, water can absorb almost ten times the amount of heat that iron can. Antifreeze is not added to increase the cooling capacity (it doesn't), but to raise the boiling point and depress the freezing point of the coolant.

 

[Andrew]

More Problems

This was a message that I received via my email:

From: agmason54
I bet you head has 'termites' as several do.White oil-you are screwed.Due to lack of coolant changes the bad anti-freeze eats the water passages away right into the commbustion chamber.I]ve owned thirty alpines or so and have seen it many times.Get a new head.Or a trailer...Do'nt drive it like that at all.When you pull the head one cylinder (or two) side by side will be perfectly clean of carbon.Bend over.

Is this possible?

Now I am worried!

I will put straight water in it today and drive it around to see what is up!


Thanks for all of the help everyone!
Regards,
Andrew

 

[Jeff Scoville]

So now he's into bugging people privately!
Andrew, calm down.
Firstly, go and buy some GOOD anti freeze.
Most all are aluminium compatible these days, just make sure.
While straight water is ok, your system will work better with a 50/50 mix.
It keeps the fluid from cavitating, lubes the WP bearings and keeps the corrosion from ingesting your head (the one on the car).
99% of the time if your H gasket is blown you will leave a white smoke out your tailpipe that you CANNOT miss.
Don't listen to Al, he's into making people think the sky is falling so he can sell them million dollar hats.
Put on some miles but keep an eye on the temp gauge.
The only way you'll really hurt the motor is if you run it hot and dry.
Don't fix it if it aint broke, that headache IS NOT a brain tumor!

 

[Andrew]

More Problems

Hi Jeff:
Thanks a bunch for the note!
I may worry a bit at times but the car tends to run a little hot.
I will add the 50/50 to the rad today and take her for a long ride.
Again, it is great being a part of the SAOCA and the forum.
I look forward to meeting everyone soon!
Regards,
Andrew

 

[Bill Blue]

Andrew, couple of tips you may already know:

Compression should always be taken with wide open throttle. If closed throttle, you will get lowered readings. But in this instance, the comparative readings are the most important and I'd say they are fine.

Don't get into a frenzy about temperature based upon the dash gauge reading unless you have verified its accuracy. It is very common for them to be as much as 20 degrees (F) high.

Bill

 

[Nickodell]

Andrew: This may be an unnecessary warning, but before you conduct a wide-open throttle compression test, be sure to remove the HT lead from your distributor. Or remove all the plugs; this is preferable in any case, as the engine will spin faster and you're going to have to take them all out in any case. And let the compression tester stay in the plug hole for three or four complete engine revolutions, as the pressure rises with each one.

What do you define as the engine running "a little hot"?

 

[Andrew]

More Problem - not so bad?

Please do not laugh as I am sure this is all about the basics, anyone with experience should know all about this!

Well, I charged the rad and was with the understanding that it should take about 7L to fill. It only took 4L and I could not put any more in, then I thought about the heater core. I ran the car with the rad cap off in hope that I would see when the themotat would open, I thought I could then charge the rest of the car. Well the temp would not go over 170, so I took her out to the corner and back to warm her up. I was then able to squeeze in 1L more into the rad. What about the last 2L? My car manual informs me that the car should take 7L.

All of this said, I took the car out for a 20 min run into the countryside.
She ran at a temperature from 180/190 deg, 50/75lb oil pressure at about 50 to 65 MPH. At the end of the trip she ran up to 205 deg and then dropped down again to 185 deg.

I let the car sit ideling to see what she would run at and it held at about 170 to 175 deg.

I found that the overflow tank had about 3/4L in it now and the rad is still full.
The 50/50 coolant is still very clean and no air bubbles when running, she seems to be running very well!

Are these temps ok? Should I worry about the coolant, or should I just run her for a week and keep an eye on the temp, oil pressure and rad level?
Should I purchase a new rad?

I love driving this car!

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[RootesRich]

Andrew,
Depending on how your drained the coolant, 1L of water could have easily remained in your system.
I think your temps are just fine and I'd just drive it around and check your coolant level a few times.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

Andrew, there are people out there who would die for your readings!
Good temp, good oil pressure.
The only suggestion I have to make sure your system is full is to;
Make sure it's topped off before drive,
Leave the 3/4 full overflow,
Drive it around with the heat on full hot so as to make sure the core is full.
That's it.

 

[Andrew]

Things are not so bad!

Hi Jeff:
Thanks for the note.
I am about to take her out for a run this afternoon.
I will check the rad again before my little trip.
If the car runs over 200 deg should I be worried?
What is a good running temperature?
Oh, and thanks to everyone for the notes and help along the way!
Andrew

 

[Chuck Ingram]

ANDREW
If I remember right operating temp is 190.
On a new engine it will be a bit higher for a while so 200 is not bad.Check the rad cap and see if it is right.
On the Lister at first it ran extremely hot when new.Of course it being a
351 Windsor didn't help with air flow.Took a while but it runs 160 on the highway but gets WARM stuck in traffic.
Enjoy