Late 2.8 V6 Timing Cover vs Mutt II solution?

[DanR]

Guys, I know this has been knocked around in the past with the results always being the same..... It Will Not Work!!

Can't help but keep trying to resolve the shortages on the market place for the Early Mustang II 2.8 V6 Timing Covers.... They are sometimes most difficult to find.

I have several and I also have a couple of the late 2.8 V6 Timing covers from the '83-'86 Ranger/Bronco II / Aero Stars.

I recently found more of the late Ranger/Bronco II engines that are rebuildable.

Only thing is the lack of a timing cover that will take the short neck water pump (Mutt II).

After several years of playing around with "possible" options of adopting the Mutt II water pump to the Ranger/Bronco II timing cover..... I believe I have a workable solution.

I am open for any suggestions and comments, PRO or CON.... But here goes... I have some pictures for your viewing pleasure. Note: the modified thermostat housing is used for mockup only! The metl is porous and not usable

1st & 2nd PIC's are of the two Timing Covers (TC) Ranger/Bronco II (R/B II) on the left and it has the Mutt II (MII) Water Pump (WP). A modified MII thermostat housing is fastened in place. It has the heater hose connection welded shut and a heater option a NPT plug. This heater option plug modification will not be needed any longer due to the R/B II heater connection already in place down under the TC (not pictured here because it is behind the M II thermostat housing....better view later in the 3rd & 4th PIC's. 4th. 5th & 6th PIC's show the bolt alignment mis-match between the two TC's but, it works nicely by just a tiny bit of grinding away metal in the valley as you can see. Perfect match with the three eared bypass piece.
In the 5th & 6th PIC's you can see the rubber plug in place. Glued in and sandwiched between the TC and WP.

 

[DanR]

I have a few more PICs to show.

For an explanation of what I have done by mating the Late Series Timing Cover (TC) and the Early Water Pump (WP) is the use of a piece of the rubber in the 3rd & 4th PICs cut to fit in the square hole of the Mutt II water pump.

Clean / prep the area with the Loctite SF 770, apply the Adhesive RP 1000 and clamp the rubber in place until dry. I had to trim the excess rubber that was left sticking above the plate that accepts the gasket between the timing cover and the water pump.

In the 5th PIC you can see the rubber cemented in place and sandwiched between the two components (TC & WP)
The 6th PIC depicts the bolt differences between the Timing Covers. Here the Ranger/Bronco II TC is mated to the Modified Mutt II Thermostat Housing & Mutt II WP. The Ranger/ Bronco II Thermostat will not work because of the need to utilize the bypass fitting (three eared) that fastens to the rear of the TC. Also the bolt pattern is off somewhat too!

Notice the one bolt that runs outside of the TC housing? Alignment differences are satisfied this way.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Dan: that is quite a lot of work! It will certainly be worthwhile if it is the only option, but didn't Jim Ellis work out a way to modify the Ranger water pump to fit? Would that be less work?

 

[phyrman]

dan, could you post side by side pump pics?

 

[DanR]

Dan: that is quite a lot of work! It will certainly be worthwhile if it is the only option, but didn't Jim Ellis work out a way to modify the Ranger water pump to fit? Would that be less work?

I am not aware of any work that makes the late Ranger water pump functional for the Alpine conversion.....
It could be a grand way to go.... Man I have studied this for close to three years.

Hope you can find something.

 

[DanR]

dan, could you post side by side pump pics?

Here are two PIC's of the two different water pumps. The short snout is the Mutt II. The larger/longer is the Ranger/Bronco II.

It is about 1 1/2" longer which definitely causes a problem for the radiator/fan operation.

 

[DanR]

Jim, with your prior comments I went back to search again.... Here is what I found.

Quote: Hi guys,

I just received an e-mail that got me to thinking. Since we are having trouble finding the Mutt II timing cover and water pump, why can´t we just use the Ranger timing cover and water pump. To be able to use the longer Ranger water pump, the radiator can moved forward and down a couple of inches. I have done this on a Seroies II Alpine, and all that was required ,was to trim about 1/4" of sheet metal from around the radiator hole, so the radiator can slip forward thorugh the bulkhead. you also need to trim a bit of metal from the stiffener in front of the bulk head. The radiator has to have the radiator cap fitting moved to the back side of the top tank, so that you can put the 90 degree fitting for the cap. I did this on socorobs Alpine seventeen years ago, and his Alpine is still running fine.

With the radiator forward a couple of inches, the longer Ranger water pump will fit. The only draw back, is that the body has to be modified a bit more, and the radiator has to have more work done to it.

Jose UNQUOTE

QUOTE The only viable options for using the Ranger timing cover, is to either move the radiator forward and down, or shorten the water pump shaft to where the over all length is the same as the Mustang II pump. The Ranger timing cover can´t be modified to work with the Mustang II water pump, because the bolt pattern around the thermostat housing is off. There´s no way to change that.

Jose UNQUOTE


Prior reading was the R/B II timing cover had to be replaced because the water pump would not work - too long!

I haven't tried removing the snout on the R/B II Water pump.... that will be my next step.

 

[Bill Blue]

So, move the radiator forward and down a bit, install a 4.0. Problem solved.

Have you had an opportunity to pull the R/B II water pump shaft and bearing to see how much metal you have to work with?
Bill

 

[DanR]

Have you had an opportunity to pull the R/B II water pump shaft and bearing to see how much metal you have to work with?
Bill

Not yet! Will first of the week....

 

[Alpine 1789]

I am not aware of any work that makes the late Ranger water pump functional for the Alpine conversion.....
It could be a grand way to go.... Man I have studied this for close to three years.

Hope you can find something.

I could certainly be wrong on this, but I am virtually certain Jim Ellis documented his Ranger pump modification, and it wasn't what you posted from Jose. If I am right, it would be in the V6 Articles Archives I saved years ago and which Mike Hartman added to his website. Unfortunately, I don't seem able to search the text in the pdf's, so I haven't been able to find it. But, I am willing to bet that it is in the long thread Jim created during his Vader build (Jim E. Parts 1, 2 and 3 in the Archive). Maybe someone else has the ability to search the document?

 

[DanR]

Jim. I searched for the past two years for anything related without success. Maybe someone will come along with an answer.

In the meantime I am continuing ever-so-slowly with My BW35 GT Project V6 and as Mr Bill says move the radiator forward

I have a late model water pump stuffed away somewhere that I will experiment with soon.

 

[Bill Blue]

I have a late model water pump stuffed away somewhere that I will experiment with soon.
Want me to see if it's my basement?

Bill

 

[DanR]

I have a late model water pump stuffed away somewhere that I will experiment with soon.
Want me to see if it's my basement?

Bill

It has a Big Blue Ribbon tied to it, so you should be able to find it easily.
I may have sent it to you sometime back by mistake

 

[phyrman]

Look at John Amaroso's (Toyanvil) Miata set up.
He place the rad infront of the core support

 

[phyrman]

Dan, I had another thought on this.....could you make a metal cover that goes over the rubber plug? 2 small screws and RTV would ensure the rubber does not come out!!!

 

[DanR]

We considered that.

A test was done to see if the rubber could be removed by prying or pulling.

It was only damaged in the flat area shown in the pictures.

The seal between the TC and the WP was not broken.

I believe it needs to be tested on an engine for proving a valid solution.

 

[phyrman]

Seems to be an easy fix if it pans out!!

 

[DanR]

Hoping so Man that would be a sweet solution so we could use the late Series Range/Bronco II Timing cover and the Mustang II Water pump.....

 

[phyrman]

You could get the later pump, disassemble and cut down and add an electric motor!!!!!

 

[DanR]

You are a real joker, Bruce