If you like old aviation films

[Nickodell]

are you seriously suggesting that RAF pilots were (are?) any better than german pilots?

maybe so, i don't really know enough about it (although i've met many - my sister is a wing commander in the raf - most possess a certain combination of arrogance and ignorance that i find particularly irksome) but i'd hazard a guess that germany produced at least some worthy pilots for the tv program...

No. I'm not sure how you arrived at that. If you go back and read what I posted, I was just wondering why there were no RAF dogfights in the series.

As to German pilots, my point was that, while they were undoubtedly as brave and skillful as any others, in both wars they were fighting on behalf of regimes that intended to invade and conquer Europe and parts of Asia and Africa (WWI) and the whole bloody world (WWII).

So I find it difficult to cheer for anyone who kills pilots (or civilians) of the nations who were trying to stop them, and I find it loathesome that people who should know better continue to talk in reverent terms of Richthofen and his ilk.

By the way, your sister is to be congratulated in reaching that rank in the RAF, equivalent to Lt. Colonel. That's two ranks higher than I ever achieved, after 6 years.

 

[jumpinjan]

Dogfights WWI

On August 17th The History Channel will be airing a 'Dogfights' episode featuring WWI dogfighting including Udet vs. Guynemer, Voss vs. 56 Squadron and Ray Brooks vs. JG2.

 

[odl21]

yeah she's doing well. been at it about 16 years now though i think.

by that measure, you should find it difficult to cheer american pilots in iraq, but i don't want to get into that...

i think you might stop to consider, had you been a pilot in germany at the time, would you have done anything different? i could go on for hours to hammer this point home but i'll just leave it at that. empathy neutralises the strongest of viewpoints.

btw, you didn't ever know a dude called dick bell did you (yes, thats really his name) - he was around about your time - flew lightnings (f35 obviously, not the p38).

 

[Nickodell]

Even if the History Channel has some strange prejudice against British fliers, you might expect them to feature one or two Canadians who flew in the Royal Flying Corps (RAF from 4/1/18). For example, Bill Barker. Never heard of him? What a surprise.

He epitomised the roving RFC/RAF "freelance" fighter pilot who flew over German lines daring them to come up and engage (something that the "legendary" Richthofen almost never did, preferring the protection of his Flying Circus, from which he might dive to attack a lumbering observation plane before zooming back up into safety).

One of Barker's most daring raids was on Christmas Day 1917. Catching the Germans off guard, he and Harold Hudson, his wingman, shot up the airfield of Fleigerableitung (A) 204, setting fire to one hangar and damaging four German aircraft before dropping a placard wishing their opponents a 'Happy Christmas'.

The Sopwith Camel was Barker's favourite aircraft. When he took command of a Bristol Fighter (2-seater) squadron, Barker took his Camel with him and continued to fly fighter operations. By this time, his personal Sopwith Camel (serial no. B6313) had became the most successful fighter aircraft in the history of the RFC/RAF, having used it to shoot down 46 aircraft and balloons from September 1917 to September 1918, for a total of 404 operational flying hours. It was dismantled in October 1918, Barker keeping the clock as a memento - although he was asked to return it the following day.

Having flown more than 900 combat hours in several planes in two and one half years, Barker was transferred back to the UK in September 1918. In London at RAF HQ, chafing at being out of the action as the war was winding down, he was granted a ten-day roving commission in France, wherein he selected the Sopwith Snipe as his personal machine and attached himself to No. 201 Squadron RAF, whose squadron commander, Major Cyril Leman, was a pal from his earliest flying days.

Now, how about this for a dogfight, History Channel?

On Sunday, 27 October 1918 (two weeks before the Armistice), he was supposed to be delivering his Snipe to an aircraft depot and leaving France for a desk job. Instead, he crossed enemy lines at 21,000 feet above the Forêt de Mormal and attacked an enemy two-seater which broke up, its crew escaping by parachute (only the Germans had them in WWI). He was then bounced by a formation of Fokker D.VIIs. In the battle against 15 or more enemy machines, Barker was wounded three times in the legs, then his left elbow was blown away, yet he managed to control his damaged Snipe and shoot down three more enemy aircraft. The dogfight took place immediately above the lines of the Canadian Corps, who observed the entire engagement. Severely wounded and bleeding profusely, he managed to land and his life was saved by the men of an RAF Kite Balloon Section, who transported him to a field dressing station. He was awarded the Victoria Cross for this actions.

Bill Barker ended the war with the VC, DSO and bar, and Military Cross and two bars.

 

[Rsgwynn1]

I'd like to have that old World at War series from the 70s, narrated by Laurence Olivier. It was a British series, so there was lots of RAF stuff in it. When it was made, many of the survivors were interviewed. I wonder if it's ever been released on dvd.

By the way, Nick, you'll love a novel called Piece of Cake, which became a BBC mini-series ten years or so ago. There were so many characters who'd show up and then get shot down that the video version was pretty hard to keep up with.

 

[Nickodell]

I'd like to have that old World at War series from the 70s, narrated by Laurence Olivier. It was a British series, so there was lots of RAF stuff in it. When it was made, many of the survivors were interviewed. I wonder if it's ever been released on dvd.

By the way, Nick, you'll love a novel called Piece of Cake, which became a BBC mini-series ten years or so ago. There were so many characters who'd show up and then get shot down that the video version was pretty hard to keep up with.

You can get The World at War on tape or DVD from BBC Video. I have the Piece of Cake series on DVD and watch it every year or so. It's pretty authentic It illustrates that the Luftwaffe pilots were generally professionals, many of them veterans of the Spanish Civil War, and were using tactics they learned there, such as the "finger four" battle formation. By contrast, the RAF fliers were mostly made up of hastily-trained men, few of whom were marksmen, and at least for the first few months used tactics from WWI, such as tight formations that had the pilots concentrating on keeping in close and watching each other instead of scanning the sky.

Luckily, there were plenty of imaginative squadron leaders, like "Sailor" Malan, Bob Stanford Tuck and (the legless) Douglas Bader, who ignored "by the book" flying, adopted the German formation, and impressed on their flocks the essentials: Height allows you to control the battle; get in close (Malan was so good that he could tell the recovery crews how many of his bullets had hit, to within 10%); never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds; keep your head turning; dive, shoot and zoom away - if you follow your victim down someone will be behind you and you will be the next victim (there was a classic air-to-air film of four fighters chasing each other in line, with the fourth being the only one to survive). Robert Shaw plays Sailor Malan in the film, in which his name is changed to "Skipper."

The one film I would love to see redone would be Battle of Britain. With the wonders of computer-generated effects, they could keep 95% of the original (I can't imagine it without Olivier playing Air Chief Marshall Dowding, C-in-C Fighter Command) while improving on the lousy, obviously studio shots of model planes burning or exploding. I would also like to see a couple of Americans portrayed, like the character in Piece of Cake. There were ten Yanks in the Battle.*

By the way, the shot of the airfield where Kenneth More, as C.O., is complaining to the Station Warrant Officer about the mess, and then a Luftwaffe raid blows most of his buildings to hell, was shot at RAF Hornchurch, a key Battle of Britain station, and also where I did my Officer Selection Board in 1958. The scene where the hanger is blown up didn't go according to plan. It was too well built, and the initial shot, where 100lb or so of explosive is rigged to go off, just blew out one wall. They had to shift the camera to a different angle, so as not to show the damage, and this time they used double the explosive and a few barrels of oil for good measure.

The Ministry of Defence were quite happy to let the film crew do this, as Hornchurch had long been deactivated and was due to be returned to civilian use. Ditto the wonderful scene of the warehouses and docks burning on the Thames. The London City Council were about to demolish them in any case. (Today, of course, computer shots would look even more impressive).

*Yanks in the Battle. Ten American pilots flew with units under the command of RAF Fighter Command between 10 July and 31 October 1940, thereby qualifying for the Battle of Britain clasp to the 1939-45 British campaign star. During this period the USA was officially neutral, but American pilots were drawn across the Atlantic by the urgency of defending democracy in Europe and their sense of adventure.

Through special arrangement with the UK, they did not have to give up their US Citizenship to fly for the RAF.

The first American to give his life in the Battle of Britain was Pilot Officer William M.L. Fiske of No. 601 Squadron. Fiske was a graduate of Cambridge University and a leading personality in the American bob sleigh teams that won the Olympic championships in 1928 and 1932. he died in hospital on 17 August 1940 after bringing back his damaged Hurricane to RAF Tangmere.

Also with No. 601 Squadron was Flying Officer Carl R. Davis, one of a small number of Americans who had seen active service with he RAF before the Battle of Britain. He had taken part in the attack on the German seaplane base at Borkum on 28 November 1939.

American pilots in the thick of the action also included Pilot Officers Vernon ("Shorty") C. Keough, Andrew Mamedoff and Eugene Q. Tobin on No. 609 Squadron. This trio had traveled to Europe with the original intention of joining the French Air Force.

L to R: Tobin, Keogh and Mamedoff. At 4'11" Keogh was by far the shortest pilot in the RAF. To be able to see over the engine cowling he had to sit on two cushions as well as his parachute pack.

Some of the American pilots later became members of the three Eagle Squadrons made up of exclusively of American pilots, formed between September 1940 and October 1941. These were No 71, 121 and 133 Squadrons. The Eagle squadrons operated as part of the RAF Fighter Command on convoy escort duties and fighter sweeps over France. All three were involved in the intense battle of Dieppe on 19 August 1942.

In the late autumn of 1942 the USA had fully entered the war in Europe and the three RAF "Eagle" Squadrons were transferred to the 8th US Air Force and became the 4th Fighter Group. The US promised not to transfer any members away, which was boken within a month. Half were transferred to other units, or back to the states to train other pilots soon after becoming officers in the 8th Air Force. Initially the 4th FG continued to fly Spitfires till they were re-equipped with P-47 Thunderbolts.

Some members refused to transfer into the US Forces and remained as part of the RAF throughout the war. Of the 244 Americans who flew in the Eagle Squadrons over 50% were wounded, killed or POWs by the time the 4th FG was established in the US 8th Air Force.

This is a good link: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/eagles/eagle1.htm

 

[Rsgwynn1]

I found good prices online for Night Bombers, Piece of Cake, and the whole World at War series, which I'm looking forward to viewing in the two weeks I have off after summer session ends next week.

I remember that scene from Battle of Britain with Kenneth More, but I was too busy watching Susannah York to notice the explosion.

One movie I especially loved, as hokey as it was, is The Blue Max, which occasionally shows up late at night. And The Dawn Patrol with Erroll Flynn is another good one. I think there is another sound version of this one but I've never seen it. Of course, there's also the Howard Hughes Hell's Angels, which is now available in a restored version. I also remember Wellman's Lafayette Escadrille, which was marred by having the hopeless Tab Hunter in the lead but had some good flying sequences. I just saw his Track of the Cat (also with Tab, alas) on tv the other night, surely one of the strangest westerns ever made: Walter Van Tilburgh Clark meets Sigmund Freud (and Eugene O'Neill).

Nick, if you ever want to watch my badly copied VHS tapes of I Wanted Wings and The West Point of the Air, I'll dig them out and send them. One that I've never seen (though it was apparently screened in College Station regularly) is something called We've Never Been Licked, which is about Texas A&M naval air cadets. "Aggies" in Texas are the butts of many timeless dummy jokes, one of which concerns the film:

Two Aggies are landing their Dauntless, out of gas, on a carrier. After a couple of wave-offs, the pilot, Bubba, sets it down on literally his last drop of gas and screeches to a halt about six inches from the edge of the deck.

Bubba: Man that was close! Look how short this deck is!
Leroy (gunner): Yeah, but look how wide it is!

 

[Nickodell]

Nick, if you ever want to watch my badly copied VHS tapes of I Wanted Wings and The West Point of the Air, I'll dig them out and send them.
Thanks, but I think I'll pass.

One that I've never seen (though it was apparently screened in College Station regularly) is something called We've Never Been Licked, which is about Texas A&M naval air cadets.

Sound like cheerleaders in an all-female college.

"Aggies" in Texas are the butts of many timeless dummy jokes, one of which concerns the film:

Two Aggies are landing their Dauntless, out of gas, on a carrier. After a couple of wave-offs, the pilot, Bubba, sets it down on literally his last drop of gas and screeches to a halt about six inches from the edge of the deck.

Bubba: Man that was close! Look how short this deck is!
Leroy (gunner): Yeah, but look how wide it is!

That's a perennial one, probably in every air force in the world, but still good!