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If you like old aviation films
- Thread starter mikephillips
- Start date
Nickodell
Donation Time
I've often wondered about the radar echo. On balance, I don't think the material - wood vs metal - has any bearing. Size and shape matter more. In any case, seeing something on radar isn't much help if you can't shoot it down. The Luftwaffe's tactics evolved into trying to predict a Mossie's course, and having a couple of Me109s climb to their maximum altitude, around 38,000, then dive to achieve extra speed.
It was rarely successful, as the planes flew deliberate dog-leg courses, and it takes time to get up to such altitudes. In his great book I Flew For The Fuhrer, German ace Heinz Knoke relates his single success using the method. Even then, he couldn't close the range until he shut his 109's radiator doors to gain an extra 10 or 15mph, even if the engine boiled, which was just enough to catch the Mosquito and shoot it down.
Yes, in fact the Mosquito was the most successful V1 killer (428 shot down), next were Mk XIV Spitfires with clipped wing tips and over-boosted engines (called "Clipped, Cropped and Clapped" by the pilots) at 303, P-51Ds (232) and Hawker Tempests and Typhoons (158). In late 1944 the Gloster Meteor jet was pressed into service while still under development and shot down a few.
The problem with using cannon fire was that you were not shooting at another fighter, but at more than a ton of high explosives and fuel with wings on it. Detonate that at the usual 300-yard range the guns were harmonized to, and you're flying through the fireball and debris one and one half seconds later. I've seen pictures of Mosquitos with much of the wood skin burned off the wings and horizontal stabilizers after such an experience. Because of this, another tactic was sometimes employed, which sounds as if it comes right out of a sci-fi magazine - coming up alongside (at 400+mph) and using your plane's wing to tip the Vi over and upset its gyro stabilization, resulting in its crashing in the open country. Here's a Spit XIV doing just that:
It was rarely successful, as the planes flew deliberate dog-leg courses, and it takes time to get up to such altitudes. In his great book I Flew For The Fuhrer, German ace Heinz Knoke relates his single success using the method. Even then, he couldn't close the range until he shut his 109's radiator doors to gain an extra 10 or 15mph, even if the engine boiled, which was just enough to catch the Mosquito and shoot it down.
Yes, in fact the Mosquito was the most successful V1 killer (428 shot down), next were Mk XIV Spitfires with clipped wing tips and over-boosted engines (called "Clipped, Cropped and Clapped" by the pilots) at 303, P-51Ds (232) and Hawker Tempests and Typhoons (158). In late 1944 the Gloster Meteor jet was pressed into service while still under development and shot down a few.
The problem with using cannon fire was that you were not shooting at another fighter, but at more than a ton of high explosives and fuel with wings on it. Detonate that at the usual 300-yard range the guns were harmonized to, and you're flying through the fireball and debris one and one half seconds later. I've seen pictures of Mosquitos with much of the wood skin burned off the wings and horizontal stabilizers after such an experience. Because of this, another tactic was sometimes employed, which sounds as if it comes right out of a sci-fi magazine - coming up alongside (at 400+mph) and using your plane's wing to tip the Vi over and upset its gyro stabilization, resulting in its crashing in the open country. Here's a Spit XIV doing just that:
Rsgwynn1
Silver Level Sponsor
That's a great photo. I'd heard of that tactic but not the reason for it. I guess a V-1 would have put out a considerable fireball.
Other than the Mosquito and the Wellington bomber, were there any other wooden planes?
An English-born writer I know named Fred Turner wrote a science fiction novel in verse (how's that for an odd combination?) a few years ago in which the spacecraft (carrying survivor's from an ecological disaster on Earth) was made of wood! It was his symbolic nod to the English tradition of wood-based technology, I suspect. Having toured The Victory recently in Portsmouth, I can attest that they got it right.
Other than the Mosquito and the Wellington bomber, were there any other wooden planes?
An English-born writer I know named Fred Turner wrote a science fiction novel in verse (how's that for an odd combination?) a few years ago in which the spacecraft (carrying survivor's from an ecological disaster on Earth) was made of wood! It was his symbolic nod to the English tradition of wood-based technology, I suspect. Having toured The Victory recently in Portsmouth, I can attest that they got it right.
Nickodell
Donation Time
The other notable all-wood plane was the single-seat successor to the Mosquito, the Hornet.
The Wellington, universally known to the crews, and the public when I lived there in WWII, as the Wimpey (after the Popeye character J. Wellington Wimpey ["I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"]) was actually all-metal. It was interesting in having geodesic construction (decades before J. Buckminster Fuller had been heard of) instead of the usual structure, which meant that you could punch great holes in it and it would stay together. Designed by Dr. Barnes Wallis, of the Dam Buster, 12,000lb Tallboy and 22,000 Grand Slam bombs fame.
The Wimp was universally loved by its crews because of its flying characteristics, ability to take battle damage, and capability of flying at high altitudes for a twin-engined "heavy."
The Wellington, universally known to the crews, and the public when I lived there in WWII, as the Wimpey (after the Popeye character J. Wellington Wimpey ["I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"]) was actually all-metal. It was interesting in having geodesic construction (decades before J. Buckminster Fuller had been heard of) instead of the usual structure, which meant that you could punch great holes in it and it would stay together. Designed by Dr. Barnes Wallis, of the Dam Buster, 12,000lb Tallboy and 22,000 Grand Slam bombs fame.
The Wimp was universally loved by its crews because of its flying characteristics, ability to take battle damage, and capability of flying at high altitudes for a twin-engined "heavy."
Nickodell
Donation Time
Huskydrvr has pointed out an error in a PM. The Hawker Tempest was actually the biggest V1 killer, with 638. The Mosquito was second.
The Tempest was the successor to the Typhoon, using the same H16 Napier Sabre engine. The Typhoon ("Tiffe" to its pilots) then became probably the best ground-attack fighter-bomber of WWII.
The Tempest was the successor to the Typhoon, using the same H16 Napier Sabre engine. The Typhoon ("Tiffe" to its pilots) then became probably the best ground-attack fighter-bomber of WWII.
Nickodell
Donation Time
Talk about coincidence!!
July 28, 2007. LONDON (Reuters) - Police closed streets near London's Canary Wharf financial district on Saturday after an unexploded German flying bomb from World War Two was found on a construction site.
Bomb disposal experts were called in to make the V1 missile safe after it was unearthed close to the east London complex that houses 80,000 office workers during the working week, police said. At weekends the area is busy with shoppers and visitors.
Police closed several roads around the site in Millharbour, a road in the former docklands.
"Ambulance, fire and police are there and the building site has been evacuated," a London police spokesman said. The area was cordoned off, he said.
Thousands of V1s, nicknamed "Doodlebugs," were fired at the capital during the war, with the docks a prime target.
Hundreds of unexploded bombs from the war are buried across the country, according to government figures. They are unearthed from time to time, often during building excavations.
Canary Wharf's tenants include Bank of America, Barclays, Citigroup, HSBC, the Independent newspaper group and Reuters.
July 28, 2007. LONDON (Reuters) - Police closed streets near London's Canary Wharf financial district on Saturday after an unexploded German flying bomb from World War Two was found on a construction site.
Bomb disposal experts were called in to make the V1 missile safe after it was unearthed close to the east London complex that houses 80,000 office workers during the working week, police said. At weekends the area is busy with shoppers and visitors.
Police closed several roads around the site in Millharbour, a road in the former docklands.
"Ambulance, fire and police are there and the building site has been evacuated," a London police spokesman said. The area was cordoned off, he said.
Thousands of V1s, nicknamed "Doodlebugs," were fired at the capital during the war, with the docks a prime target.
Hundreds of unexploded bombs from the war are buried across the country, according to government figures. They are unearthed from time to time, often during building excavations.
Canary Wharf's tenants include Bank of America, Barclays, Citigroup, HSBC, the Independent newspaper group and Reuters.
Nickodell
Donation Time
They are still finding, not only WWII, but also the occasional WWI bomb in London (and other British cities). And British army and RAF EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) teams have been working in Europe - mainly Germany, France and Italy - ever since 1945, disarming and disposing of WWII bombs.
One of the biggest surprises was when the Germans drained the lake behind one of the dams that was raided in the "Dam Busters" attack, to carry out maintenance and repair, and found one of Barnes Wallis's bouncing bombs sitting in the mud at the base of the dam, as it had for half a century. This was all the more surprising as one would have thought every one of the bombs had been accounted for in the raid; you'd think that if one didn't explode after dropping, that fact would have been logged. I guess that when you have to hi-tail it back home with the dawn coming up, and the antiaircraft and fighter defenses alerted, it could slip the mind. Over 40% loss rate.
One of the biggest surprises was when the Germans drained the lake behind one of the dams that was raided in the "Dam Busters" attack, to carry out maintenance and repair, and found one of Barnes Wallis's bouncing bombs sitting in the mud at the base of the dam, as it had for half a century. This was all the more surprising as one would have thought every one of the bombs had been accounted for in the raid; you'd think that if one didn't explode after dropping, that fact would have been logged. I guess that when you have to hi-tail it back home with the dawn coming up, and the antiaircraft and fighter defenses alerted, it could slip the mind. Over 40% loss rate.
Nickodell
Donation Time
Even the B17/24, Lancaster and other advanced WWII aircraft used some wood for things that the material did better than metal. The term "all metal" refers to major airframe components, such as wing spars and fuselage. Some aircraft used fabric coverings for control surfaces, such as elevators, rudder and ailerons, right into the 1950s, to keep the mass down.
And my brain must have been in neutral when I wondered why the unexploded dam bomb was not logged. Many of the Lancasters shot down in the raid were lost on the return trip, so it was probably dropped by one of these.
And my brain must have been in neutral when I wondered why the unexploded dam bomb was not logged. Many of the Lancasters shot down in the raid were lost on the return trip, so it was probably dropped by one of these.
Rsgwynn1
Silver Level Sponsor
The Dambusters movie with Richard Todd and Michael Redgrave is a great one; I've probably seen it 20 times, the first time with my dad at one of the drive-in theaters he built. The last time I saw it on tv, it had been redubbed so Todd's labrador's name would be offensive to anyone.
Nickodell
Donation Time
It's just a reflection of the times, that the dog's original name was the "N" word. I usually hate when they dub movies, but this time it was appropriate. Guy Gibson was one of those Himalayan characters that us (very) lesser mortals in the RAF regarded with total and absolute awe and admiration and made you feel that your own contribution was equivalent to pyssing in the sea.
By the time he was put in charge of 617 Squadron for the Dams raid he was already a Wing Commander (US eq. Lt. Col.) and had the Distinguished Service Order and Bar (i.e. two DSOs),and the DFC and Bar. And he had already completed three "tours" flying bombers over Germany, making him statistically about 8 times dead, plus shooting down bombers as a night-fighter pilot.
All this at age 24.
After the dams raid, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross, he was ordered to stop flying, and given desk jobs after a trip to the US, during which he also wrote his great autobiography, Enemy Coast Ahead (MUST READING for any WWII air war fan). However, after a year of this he pulled strings (a VC pulls a lot of strings) and got himself a job of Master Bomber, the most dangerous role of all because it means arriving first, then flying round the target for the whole raid, radioing aiming corrections to the successive waves of bombers, all the time being fired at from the ground, and often the air. On his last trip, at the end of the raid he was heard to say "Great job, chaps. Now beat it back home." Shortly after this his Mosquito crashed in Holland and he was buried there.
Incidentally, Richard Todd, who plays Gibson in the movie, was a war hero himself. He was among the small bunch of British airborne troops who were landed on the night of June 5 to capture the Orne River bridge, to stop a Geman armored counterattack. Miraculously, the gliders all landed a few hundred yards from the bridge and were not spotted, and the troops took and held the bridge after a fierce battle, and held it for two days against counterattacks. If the bridge had been retaken by the Germans, they could have brought in masses of armor against the lightly-armed invasion armies, and, possibly, pushed them back into the sea. This was in fact the very first action on D-Day. In the move The Longest Day, Todd essentially plays himself. If you are ever in the Caen area it's worth paying a visit to the bridge, still there and called Pegasus Bridge after the badge of the British Airborne, which is of the mythical flying horse of the same name.
By the time he was put in charge of 617 Squadron for the Dams raid he was already a Wing Commander (US eq. Lt. Col.) and had the Distinguished Service Order and Bar (i.e. two DSOs),and the DFC and Bar. And he had already completed three "tours" flying bombers over Germany, making him statistically about 8 times dead, plus shooting down bombers as a night-fighter pilot.
All this at age 24.
After the dams raid, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross, he was ordered to stop flying, and given desk jobs after a trip to the US, during which he also wrote his great autobiography, Enemy Coast Ahead (MUST READING for any WWII air war fan). However, after a year of this he pulled strings (a VC pulls a lot of strings) and got himself a job of Master Bomber, the most dangerous role of all because it means arriving first, then flying round the target for the whole raid, radioing aiming corrections to the successive waves of bombers, all the time being fired at from the ground, and often the air. On his last trip, at the end of the raid he was heard to say "Great job, chaps. Now beat it back home." Shortly after this his Mosquito crashed in Holland and he was buried there.
Incidentally, Richard Todd, who plays Gibson in the movie, was a war hero himself. He was among the small bunch of British airborne troops who were landed on the night of June 5 to capture the Orne River bridge, to stop a Geman armored counterattack. Miraculously, the gliders all landed a few hundred yards from the bridge and were not spotted, and the troops took and held the bridge after a fierce battle, and held it for two days against counterattacks. If the bridge had been retaken by the Germans, they could have brought in masses of armor against the lightly-armed invasion armies, and, possibly, pushed them back into the sea. This was in fact the very first action on D-Day. In the move The Longest Day, Todd essentially plays himself. If you are ever in the Caen area it's worth paying a visit to the bridge, still there and called Pegasus Bridge after the badge of the British Airborne, which is of the mythical flying horse of the same name.
Nickodell
Donation Time
Liberators outnumbered the Fortresses. I've spoken to members of Liberator crews who were pretty disdainful of the B-17s for their inferior speed, range, altitude, and bomb load.
I think a lot of this had to do with the B-25s being the plane on the Doolittle Raid, which made them immortal, and the fact that the B-17 was first on the scene and had that reputation for ruggedness. That and the documentary about the Memphis Belle.
I don't know how many times I've seen that horrifying piece of film of a Liberator in flames (shot from above) and the whole right wing just folds up.
[\QUOTE]
The B-24 was the most-produced bomber in WWII, possibly in history. The legendary Davis airfoil wing gave it, as you say, greater speed, altitude, range and bombload. Unfortunately, it was also the 24's weak point. A hit in the shorter, wider wing of a B-17 was often survivable; in the 24 it was frequently fatal. There are numerous shots and films of 24s losing their wings after battle damage that the 17 might have survived.
The B-24's shoulder-wing configuration also meant that, while the B-17 would usually crash-land OK, cushioned by the low wing (and protruding wheels, even in the retracted position), a 24 would usually come apart like a squashed bug. And, let's face it, while the 17 was glamorous the 24 was ugly. Ironic that the B-17 looked fast, but really wasn't, being underpowered, while the boxy 24 looked slow and was much faster.
My dad flew lend-lease B-24 Liberators in the RAF Far East Air Force in WWII, as a combat air film photographer. He always commented on the meticulous attention to detail, and technical quality, of the plane. He was also grateful, as were all the crews, for the engine reliability and outstanding service ceiling of the Lib, since they often had to cross the Himalayas.
In a long-ago post - possibly in the old forum - I mentioned that the one that ferried him back to RAF Kolar, in India, prior to catching the train for Bombay and the ship back to England in early 1946, may possibly be the preserved one flown by Wings of Fame. Kolar was a disposal point where scores, possibly hundreds, of planes were destroyed - many with just delivery mileage, or fresh out of shipping crates - after August 1945. A few survived.
Incidentally, the wing coming off the B-24 in the famous film clip was caused by bombs from another 24 higher up falling on it. If you record it in digital format (Tivo or DVD) and play it back at 1/4 speed you can easily see the cascade of bombs falling, until one explodes right on the main spar. Bombs from above were a constant hazard in the USAF's "box" formation method. There is another photo sequence where a bomb falls on a B-17's horizontal stabilizer, causing the plane to immediately go into an irrecoverable vertical dive. Amazingly, the pictures are taken through the open bomb bay doors of the 17 that dropped them. I guess in a Hollywood version, someone in the stricken plane would be transmitting AAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Rsgwynn1
Silver Level Sponsor
Incidentally, the wing coming off the B-24 in the famous film clip was caused by bombs from another 24 higher up falling on it. If you record it in digital format (Tivo or DVD) and play it back at 1/4 speed you can easily see the cascade of bombs falling, until one explodes right on the main spar. Bombs from above were a constant hazard in the USAF's "box" formation method. There is another photo sequence where a bomb falls on a B-17's horizontal stabilizer, causing the plane to immediately go into an irrecoverable vertical dive. Amazingly, the pictures are taken through the open bomb bay doors of the 17 that dropped them. I guess in a Hollywood version, someone in the stricken plane would be transmitting AAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
+++++++++++++++
Great info on Gibson, most of which I'd forgotten after reading a good book on his squadron some years ago. I'll try to track down a copy of his book. What a hero and to die so young! Those "master bombers" dropped incendiaries from Mosquitoes so the rest of the night-flying crews would know where to go. I read that he died as a result of running out of gas, or at least from a malfunction in switching his fuel tanks.
My first computer was a Coleco Adam (abut 25 years ago). It was ok for word processing but not much else. However, one of the best games that was developed for it was a primitive flight simulator called "Dambusters." It was based on the movie (and Gibson's exploits). I don't think I ever got close to the Moehne or even very far across the Channel, but it was fun to try. My grandson could probably bust those dams with about five minutes training.
I'd always assumed that the notorious B-24 clip was a result of a direct flak hit, not "friendly fire." It's been a long while, but they captured something like this (inadequately) in the Memphis Belle film (not the documentary).
I just read something online that said that the design of the B-24 made it very difficult for the crew to exit from a hit plane. I'd never heard about this.
Many years ago I saw a picture of a B-32 "Dominator" in a Martin Caidin book. It was taken from the front and made the bomber look very graceful. Other pictures I've seen later reveal that it was just a revised B-24, meant to be a fallback in case the B-29 didn't pan out. Apparently, they flew only a few missions. No specimens survive.
+++++++++++++++
Great info on Gibson, most of which I'd forgotten after reading a good book on his squadron some years ago. I'll try to track down a copy of his book. What a hero and to die so young! Those "master bombers" dropped incendiaries from Mosquitoes so the rest of the night-flying crews would know where to go. I read that he died as a result of running out of gas, or at least from a malfunction in switching his fuel tanks.
My first computer was a Coleco Adam (abut 25 years ago). It was ok for word processing but not much else. However, one of the best games that was developed for it was a primitive flight simulator called "Dambusters." It was based on the movie (and Gibson's exploits). I don't think I ever got close to the Moehne or even very far across the Channel, but it was fun to try. My grandson could probably bust those dams with about five minutes training.
I'd always assumed that the notorious B-24 clip was a result of a direct flak hit, not "friendly fire." It's been a long while, but they captured something like this (inadequately) in the Memphis Belle film (not the documentary).
I just read something online that said that the design of the B-24 made it very difficult for the crew to exit from a hit plane. I'd never heard about this.
Many years ago I saw a picture of a B-32 "Dominator" in a Martin Caidin book. It was taken from the front and made the bomber look very graceful. Other pictures I've seen later reveal that it was just a revised B-24, meant to be a fallback in case the B-29 didn't pan out. Apparently, they flew only a few missions. No specimens survive.
Nickodell
Donation Time
Not quite correct. By 1944 the night raids had been refined so that in many cases they would swamp the defences with up to 1,000 heavies arriving and bombing in 20 minutes or less. To do this, meticulous planning was necessary, and, equally, had to be carried out flawlessly.
The first planes over the target were PFF (Pathfinder Force) Lancasters, equipped with H2S blind bombing gear and specially chosen crews with at least one 30-raid tour, for their navigating and precision bombing capabilities (by this stage the RAF were bombing at night, using H2S and the SABS [Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight] as accurately, and in some cases more accurately, than the USAF by day). The PFF planes dropped the first "markers," flares of a prearranged color, indicating the target. If they were not spot on, due to wind drift etc., more of a different color would be dropped. Until they were satisfied.
If the topography of the ground did not show well on H2S, the PFF planes might be Mosquitos equipped with a different kind of navigation aid, code named Musical Oboe, or usually just Oboe for short. This used intercepting radio beams broadcast from two transmitters in Britain that sounded a tone (hence Oboe) in the crews' earphones when they crossed, indicating that the plane was directly over the target. It was exceptionally accurate, but as it was "line of sight," the curvature of the earth required the Mossies to fly at up to 40,000 feet (unpressurized), and even then was limited to about 400 miles.
The Germans used to call the flares Christmas trees, because as they descended they resembled the lights on those trees.
These were followed by "backers up," who dropped more flares of the same color, and what were called "spot fires" (4,000lb cannisters of rubber, phosphorus and benzene, virtually impossible to extinguish). This was because the first acts of the defenders was usually to light spoof flares and fake fires away from the target and in open country. After a few dozen spot fire cannisters had ignited, there was no doubt where the real target was.
The Master Bomber, a sort of M.C. to the event, cruised round in a Mosquito, without bombs, and directed the main force bombers, emphasizing the correct colors and warning of fake flares and fires, and also of fake targets that the Germans built out in the country, complete with wooden buildings and factories. One of his main functions was to correct what was called "creep back." Human nature being what it is, as the raid progressed and the antiaircraft fire became intense, and they saw blazing Lancasters on the ground, there was a tendency to bomb the nearside edge of the target and then hi-tail it away. In time this would cause the bombs to progressively fall further and further back along the track of the incoming bombers.
I have a recording made on one of the raids, with the Master Bomber exclaiming, in a broad Yank accent, "This is pretty damn sad. You late comers are bombing way to hell south of the target. What do ..." at which point the transmission, and possibly the speaker, are swallowed up in the malestrom of the raid. There were a couple of dozen Americans who flew in the RAF in WWII, and although many of the fighter pilots were well known, those in Bomber Command weren't. One of Gibson's pilots on the Dams Raid was big (6'4" and 225lbs) Joe McCarthy from Brooklyn, who stayed with 617 Squadron for two years after the raid (ending as Wing Commander, DSO, DFC and two bars). Here he is meeting King George VI (Gibson is on the right):
There was a lot of pressure put on these guys to join the USAF after America entered the war, but many of them resisted. Even at 10X the pay.
The first planes over the target were PFF (Pathfinder Force) Lancasters, equipped with H2S blind bombing gear and specially chosen crews with at least one 30-raid tour, for their navigating and precision bombing capabilities (by this stage the RAF were bombing at night, using H2S and the SABS [Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight] as accurately, and in some cases more accurately, than the USAF by day). The PFF planes dropped the first "markers," flares of a prearranged color, indicating the target. If they were not spot on, due to wind drift etc., more of a different color would be dropped. Until they were satisfied.
If the topography of the ground did not show well on H2S, the PFF planes might be Mosquitos equipped with a different kind of navigation aid, code named Musical Oboe, or usually just Oboe for short. This used intercepting radio beams broadcast from two transmitters in Britain that sounded a tone (hence Oboe) in the crews' earphones when they crossed, indicating that the plane was directly over the target. It was exceptionally accurate, but as it was "line of sight," the curvature of the earth required the Mossies to fly at up to 40,000 feet (unpressurized), and even then was limited to about 400 miles.
The Germans used to call the flares Christmas trees, because as they descended they resembled the lights on those trees.
These were followed by "backers up," who dropped more flares of the same color, and what were called "spot fires" (4,000lb cannisters of rubber, phosphorus and benzene, virtually impossible to extinguish). This was because the first acts of the defenders was usually to light spoof flares and fake fires away from the target and in open country. After a few dozen spot fire cannisters had ignited, there was no doubt where the real target was.
The Master Bomber, a sort of M.C. to the event, cruised round in a Mosquito, without bombs, and directed the main force bombers, emphasizing the correct colors and warning of fake flares and fires, and also of fake targets that the Germans built out in the country, complete with wooden buildings and factories. One of his main functions was to correct what was called "creep back." Human nature being what it is, as the raid progressed and the antiaircraft fire became intense, and they saw blazing Lancasters on the ground, there was a tendency to bomb the nearside edge of the target and then hi-tail it away. In time this would cause the bombs to progressively fall further and further back along the track of the incoming bombers.
I have a recording made on one of the raids, with the Master Bomber exclaiming, in a broad Yank accent, "This is pretty damn sad. You late comers are bombing way to hell south of the target. What do ..." at which point the transmission, and possibly the speaker, are swallowed up in the malestrom of the raid. There were a couple of dozen Americans who flew in the RAF in WWII, and although many of the fighter pilots were well known, those in Bomber Command weren't. One of Gibson's pilots on the Dams Raid was big (6'4" and 225lbs) Joe McCarthy from Brooklyn, who stayed with 617 Squadron for two years after the raid (ending as Wing Commander, DSO, DFC and two bars). Here he is meeting King George VI (Gibson is on the right):
There was a lot of pressure put on these guys to join the USAF after America entered the war, but many of them resisted. Even at 10X the pay.
Nickodell
Donation Time
As you're obviously a fan of WWII air movies, try to get hold of Night Bombers.
This is a documentary that follows the planning and preparation of an RAF night raid on the Ruhr, right through the bombing-up and then from one of the actual Lancasters involved, all the way over the target through to the landings, including the one the camera is on which had to divert to another airfield because of fog. (There's a great shot of it landing at the alternate field which is one of the ones equipped with FIDO, where thousands of gallons of kerosene are pumped through pipes alongside the runway and ignited to burn off the fog).
This is unique in many ways, not least because it was the only color film made of an RAF raid.
Rsgwynn1
Silver Level Sponsor
I'll look for this one. Thanks.
You know, I've never seen Command Decision, which parallels a lot of the plot of Twelve O'clock High, apparently. I think it was actually a stage play first. I'll have to check to see if it's out on video.
I miss the old "Wings" series on A&E that I used to see ten years ago or so. They were down-and-dirty documentaries about how the airplanes were built and flown--lots of technical details that most viewers wouldn't care for. Maybe they're still on, but much too late at night or early in the morning for me to see them.
You know, I've never seen Command Decision, which parallels a lot of the plot of Twelve O'clock High, apparently. I think it was actually a stage play first. I'll have to check to see if it's out on video.
I miss the old "Wings" series on A&E that I used to see ten years ago or so. They were down-and-dirty documentaries about how the airplanes were built and flown--lots of technical details that most viewers wouldn't care for. Maybe they're still on, but much too late at night or early in the morning for me to see them.
Nickodell
Donation Time
The History Channel Dogfight series are worth watching. My only gripe is that they are either of WWI german aces or WWII/Korea/Vietnam Americans. I've yet to see any of the RAF.
When I start whining about this, my good wife usually says something like "it's an American series, designed for an American audience. What do you expect?" Then she reminds me that we are also Americans, and have been for nearly 39 years. (Staggering thought: we've been US citizens for almost 1/5 of the country's existence as a nation. And that our combined ages takes one back to the Civil War
) Notwithstanding; I still don't know why they keep glorifying German fliers, particularly that phony Richthofen.
O
odl21
are you seriously suggesting that RAF pilots were (are?) any better than german pilots?
maybe so, i don't really know enough about it (although i've met many - my sister is a wing commander in the raf - most possess a certain combination of arrogance and ignorance that i find particularly irksome) but i'd hazard a guess that germany produced at least some worthy pilots for the tv program...
maybe so, i don't really know enough about it (although i've met many - my sister is a wing commander in the raf - most possess a certain combination of arrogance and ignorance that i find particularly irksome) but i'd hazard a guess that germany produced at least some worthy pilots for the tv program...