Head gasket options

[RootesRacer]

Is making this type of copper gasket something that can be cut on a water jet machine. I have a friend that has one in his shop and he's always looking for new to try.

If someone gives me some specs I can look into whether this is something he can do.

I still need another head gasket as well so this appeals to me as well.

Eric

'62 SerII

Yes, water jets are usually used with copper gaskets.

Now unless you o-ring the block, or find a way to "raise" the sealing surface of the copper gaskets, solid copper gaskets are probably not for you since they dont seal well without hylomar, and even then not for very long.

 

[Jim E]

Tom look very close at that gasket version and make sure it is shaped right, few years back I had several that were not. When laid on the block you could see the holes around the bores were a off a good bit. These were also know for blowing between cylinders as I recall.

 

[V_Mad]

Andy,

I was blowing copper gaskets in the exact spot you mention on my street alpine motor, i did 3 in 3 years. (it is running 10.5:1 and a few other things) I ended up modifying the head and the gasket to get rid of the weak point you mention. Here are the photos, no issues since this was done:

BLOWN HG:

MODIFIED HEAD:


CUSTOM HG:

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1130339669054462410SHKlsz]http://thumb10.webshots.net/s/thumb1/3/96/69/130339669SHKlsz_th.jpg[/QUOTE]

That pic of the blown gasket is a real eye opener. I dont know how that design would ever work reliably; you really do need a solid (eg copper) section in that area. I think reducing the slot to two holes is a good move, provided that it allows enough coolant flow throughout normal service life, with all the usual silt etc.

 

[Alpineracer8]

Michael:

Have you had any cooling problems or pre-ignition problems with your motor since you modified the head and head gasket? I am guessing that the factory left the elongated slot in the head to allow maximum coolant flow through the head from the water jackets in the block. Restricting that flow could cause some hot spots on the combustion chamber and allow a pre-ignition, or detonation, problem. This, of course, could lead to all sorts of nasty situations, not in the least a blown up piston crown.

If you've had no problems like this and you are running your engine hard and with somewhere around 11:1 compression, then you may have found the answer. I'm headed over to one of my buddy's racing shops at lunch armed with this info to see what he has to say about it.

Thanks to everyone,

 

[alpine_64]

Michael:

Have you had any cooling problems or pre-ignition problems with your motor since you modified the head and head gasket? I am guessing that the factory left the elongated slot in the head to allow maximum coolant flow through the head from the water jackets in the block. Restricting that flow could cause some hot spots on the combustion chamber and allow a pre-ignition, or detonation, problem. This, of course, could lead to all sorts of nasty situations, not in the least a blown up piston crown.

If you've had no problems like this and you are running your engine hard and with somewhere around 11:1 compression, then you may have found the answer. I'm headed over to one of my buddy's racing shops at lunch armed with this info to see what he has to say about it.

Thanks to everyone,

Andy,

I did this to the motor in 2003, i have had no issues and have put on quite a few miles 9even used it daily for 1.5years). I have since seen other people doing simlar mods in the UK, though i think they drilled the block as we had to channel one of the passages on each cylinder in the head, where as they had to even round holes. I have had no issues with running on, car runs cool and the gasket has lasted (i have a pattern gasket if you wanted me to scan it)

 

[RootesRacer]

Andy,

I did this to the motor in 2003, i have had no issues and have put on quite a few miles 9even used it daily for 1.5years). I have since seen other people doing simlar mods in the UK, though i think they drilled the block as we had to channel one of the passages on each cylinder in the head, where as they had to even round holes. I have had no issues with running on, car runs cool and the gasket has lasted (i have a pattern gasket if you wanted me to scan it)

Michael,

Tell us the story on the manufacture of that gasket, it looks factory quality.

 

[alpine_64]

Michael,

Tell us the story on the manufacture of that gasket, it looks factory quality.

Jarrid,

Storey goes like this.. Young silly boy owns alpine with way to much compression and to heavy a right foot. Every year he basically replaces a copper HG. Boy gets tired of this and sees a pattern of where the gasket keeps blowing. Decides to add some meat to the gasket in that area and hope to solve this problem.

Found a guy to do the head, found a guy that makes gaskets.. think it cost me AU$130 at the time. I let him recomend material.. its worked. Thats about it really. Cant tell you what material the gasket is.. but could find out if you wanted.

BTW.. the one thing i assume wioth my mod.. is that the water passages in the head that sort of transfer must make the fluid run across the gasket face.. but the guy had the head when he did the HG.. so he was obviously not concerned and it has worked well.

Sorry cant be more help. Like i said.. if anyone wanted i have the templete for the gasket still.. and i could get in contact with the guy again if you want more info.

 

[RootesRacer]

Jarrid,

Storey goes like this.. Young silly boy owns alpine with way to much compression and to heavy a right foot. Every year he basically replaces a copper HG. Boy gets tired of this and sees a pattern of where the gasket keeps blowing. Decides to add some meat to the gasket in that area and hope to solve this problem.

Found a guy to do the head, found a guy that makes gaskets.. think it cost me AU$130 at the time. I let him recomend material.. its worked. Thats about it really. Cant tell you what material the gasket is.. but could find out if you wanted.

BTW.. the one thing i assume wioth my mod.. is that the water passages in the head that sort of transfer must make the fluid run across the gasket face.. but the guy had the head when he did the HG.. so he was obviously not concerned and it has worked well.

Sorry cant be more help. Like i said.. if anyone wanted i have the templete for the gasket still.. and i could get in contact with the guy again if you want more info.

It blows my mind you can get a custom gasket made to that standard for $130AUD.

This may be a good overall solution to the headgasket game, but I still am going to pursue the solid copper method for my own motor.

 

[alpine_64]

It blows my mind you can get a custom gasket made to that standard for $130AUD.

Jarrid please be careful... the gasket between your mind and skull might fail

This was a few years back now.. not sure what the cost would be these days... but given inflation here... probably LOTS! I wish in retrospect i had a bunch of them done, even for my own peace of mind.

 

[tigretr]

Hi guys,
Cometic gaskets made me a very nice copper gasket for my turbo motor. Granted I O-ringed my block and put a receiver groove in the head, I think for a NA motor it would work just fine. Using my design might prove tough since I have 7/16 head bolts which would make lining it up on your block somewhat difficult. Cometics can take a new head gasket (from Sunbeam Specialties for example), scan it and come up with a design for your motor. Like Jarrid said, the price wasn't too bad.

Good luck. What were those brits thinking when they put that water jacket so close to the bore?

Brian

 

[Alpineracer8]

Brian:

Funny you should bring that up. I just got off the phone with Brandon at Cometic. He told me that he did not have the tooling necessary to make one of their 3-piece head gaskets for an Alpine. He could make me one out of copper, but that's the best they can do. Consequently, Cometic is out of the mix for us Sunbeamers. That is, I guess unless a whole bunch of us contacted them for head gaskets. I suspect he might change his tune at that point...

Thanks,

 

[serIIalpine]

I spoke to the fine people at Gasket Works today and they can make a custom copper head gasket of any thickness for about $105 and stainless steel compression rings for about $12-15 each.

http://www.headgasket.com/gaskets.html

The size and shape of the combustion chamber can be custom cut as can the water jacket holes which can also be cut as small round holes or as the kidney shaped holes.

They promise a discount of 20% for 4 gaskets in an order and 30% for an order of ten.

They'll cut them all different if we want.

If we can get a consensus that this is a good way to go I can put in an order.

They are located near my home in LA.

Let me know.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[jumpinjan]

I visited their web page and I have more questions, then answers. What information do they require to make an Alpine head gasket? How do the "compression rings" work, and they are applied with contact cement? I have a lot of questions...
(Also, its very odd I could not find a business address??? Their web page could be organized a lot better)

 

[serIIalpine]

I spoke to one of the guys on the phone about an hour ago and they seem to know what they are doing.

I've heard of using annealed copper gaskets with a stainless compression ring before and they seem to A. know what they're doing. B. done this more than once and C. this may work better than what's available elsewhere.

Of course his website sucks. He's not federal Mogul/felpro. This is some guy with a water jet machine trying to fill a niche market. I called him after hours and we talked for half an hour about all the different types of gaskets he can make etc.

Personally I figure it's worth a shot given my options. I am just curious what other people might think about the technology.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[jumpinjan]

That's great. If he needs a solid model (software) of the gasket, I could probably make one up. I recommend to eliminate the cresent-moon steam hole passage and just put two small holes there to give the area more strength at the fire ring.
Jan

 

[Alpineracer8]

Eric & Jan:

Well, it appears that we are all on the same wave length. I, too, found Gasket Works website yesterday and called them. Eric, if you called him after hours, he may have been on the phone with you when I called! He said he was in a meeting but he knew exactly what I would need, which sounded a bit strange to me. Now that I read that you had spoken with him, I realize that he probably did know what I needed!

I agree totally with the suggestion that you both have put forth regarding the elimination of the crescent cut-out for the water jacket, replacing it instead with two holes. Once we saw where my gasket had blown, my mechanic friend and I reached that conclusion, too. I am supposed to talk with him again today; I'll keep everyone posted as to what goes on, as I'm sure Eric will do.

Take care,

 

[George Farrell]

Over the last thirty plus years, I've blown a lot more head gaskets than tires (the score is something like 4 to 0). I'm seriously thinking of replacing my spare tire with a spare head, gasket set and torqure wrench!

If the experts can come come up with a standard design, I would sign up for a couple of gaskets. Does SAOCA have the funds to finance a run that could be resold to members?

George Farrell

 

[Paul A]

Over the last thirty plus years, I've blown a lot more head gaskets than tires (the score is something like 4 to 0). I'm seriously thinking of replacing my spare tire with a spare head, gasket set and torqure wrench!

George Farrell

Hi all:

Like George, I have blown more head gaskets than tires. I would also purchase several if available.

No Alpine driving today - we are in the middle of a major league April blizzard with about 9 inches of snow so far and very strong winds. Phoenix is looking better all the time!

 

[gordonra]

One has to wonder if the steel block, aluminum head and a copper gasket would be a bad mix for electrolytic action between the parts.

If we add a little salt to the coolant, maybe we could elliminate the battery and save some weight??

Just making fun mostly, but makes me wonder....

Regarding the gasket shape:

If the copper thickness is ~.032" milling would probably be a pretty tough deed. Cutting the shape would be relatively easy with waterjet, or possibly laser, but someone mentioned some relief in area. If this is required, how much relief? A few thousandths?

Rich

 

[Ken Ellis]

As far as the thickness goes, if you stack several up (like 20) and mill 'em all at once, the thin material is less of an issue. I believe the relief 'machining' is apparently similar to circuit board etching (with a resist mask and an acid) rather than actual cutting tools -- I think someone mentioned that above.

WRT financing -- I'd be in for four, if the engineer types think it's worth a go. I think a reasonable deposit would be fine. Copper and time ain't free. (Would brass work?)

And would lapping the head to the block, instead of 'just' milling them, be an improvement?

Ken
...so many questions, so little time.