Head gasket options

[Alpineracer8]

Hey, guys:

By now, you may have read about my blown head gasket at the CVAR vintage races at Hallett Motor Racing Circuit last weekend. As it turns out, I'm not the only one who has suffered this malady in recent times. I'm not knocking Sunbeam Specialties at all, but the head gasket I used came from there. If I'm not mistaken, another guy I know who races a Sunbeam has had a couple blow on him, too, and I think they came from there as well.

My question to everyone is this; are their higher performance head gaskets available for Alpines or are we just stuck with whatever we can get from mainstream suppliers? Are there any tricks out there that might help me get more than one weekend out of a head gasket??? I'm all ears, guys. I've got another race coming up in about six weeks in Texas and I'd like to be able to last the whole weekend...

Thanks,

 

[jumpinjan]

Spray some copper head gasket sealer on it. That's what I'm doing now, after installing them dry.
Jan

 

[alpine_64]

Are you running composite gaskets? Copper gaskets? What compression is the engine running? Maybe look into doing a custom HG for yourself. If they are blowig becasue of compression, look into a copper one, though some people complain they go under other conditions (stop start driving in heat) whihc should not be an issue for you.

 

[V_Mad]

Some random thoughts:

Do you re-torque the head after warm up?

Is there a pattern to the failures; do they always occur in the same area (maybe the head or the block is not flat enough) ?

Is the torque wrench accurate enough and calibrated?

 

[Jim E]

Last motor I built blew the HG in no time and never had that happen before so the one I am assembling today gets the copper spray. I suggest at least three re-torques at about 300-500 mile intervales. On a race motor about all you can do is heat cycle and re-torque. Not sure if it is a HG quality issue they look the same as the ones I got before. Now the new intake/exhaust gasket is just flat out junk.

Oh and the motor needs to be stone cold when you run the head bolts

 

[Tom H]

Jim,

Do you mean the engine has to be stone cold each time you retorque the head bolts?

Tom

 

[sunbeam74]

Sorry to hear about the headgasket....

I use the copper and spray it with Permatex copper coating stuff.
I am not sure if it is a question of luck or that's the thing to do but the head gasket lasted for about 1400 race miles (valve head let go)

Steve

 

[Alpineracer8]

Thanks, guys, for the responses; let me address them.

First of all, we did use a liberal coating of CopperCoat head gasket spray. The problem is not with the use or non-use of that product. I think the situation is such that the head gaskets that we can get from the normal suppliers are not meant for use in a higher performance application. I wouldn't worry at all about installing one of them on a street car, but put one on a 10.5 or 11:1 compression motor and you're going to end up with a blown gasket. Yes, the head was retorqued after a heating/cooling cycle and, yes, it was torqued with the engine stone cold. I'm also using ARP head studs and nuts to help eliminate a stretching problem. The block has been decked and the head has been shaved; both are table-top flat. In short, we've done everything you're supposed to do to keep this from happening, and yet it still happened. By the way, my buddy who has blown two head gaskets on his Sunbeam racer told me where to look when I got the head off. Sure enough, mine blew in the EXACT SAME PLACE that his two had; between #1 cylinder wall and the kidney-shaped hole in the gasket that seals the water jackets on the passenger side of the motor. The gasket is not very wide there and does not offer much support for itself.

My opinion is that this points squarely to the quality of the gasket itself. I know there are other types of head gaskets available for other cars, such as Fel-Pro or Cometic. However, non of these make one for a Sunbeam. Has anyone out there been able to solve this problem of blowing a head gasket in a high-compression Sunbeam motor?

Thanks,

 

[Alpineracer8]

Sorry to hear about the headgasket....

I use the copper and spray it with Permatex copper coating stuff.
I am not sure if it is a question of luck or that's the thing to do but the head gasket lasted for about 1400 race miles (valve head let go)

Steve

Steve:

Just out of curiousity, what kind of compression ratio are you running and where did you get your head gasket?

I hope nobody gets me wrong...I'm not really all that upset that it blew. I'm just trying my best to build a good, solid, bullet-proof motor that will last and return good performance. Consequently, I'm just trying to source the best parts I can get. It's just that I would rather not have to "reinvent the wheel" if someone out there has already been down this road and has the answer.

Thanks,

 

[sunbby]

So I assume this is an issue with combustion pressure overcoming the gasket and allowing combustion gases to leak into the coolant passage?

In a previous life I had an issue, constantly blowing head gaskets on a Kawaski race bike. I used/reused a flat copper head gasket (that I would anneal "ala" Bill Blue's method to make sure it was soft).

In addition to the copper head gasket, we cut a small groove around the bore and I installed a copper wire "o-ring" in the groove. Some people when all out and put rubber o-rings around the water jackets, the copper "o-ring" around the bore and no head gasket at all.

Since any gasket will not have much material at the site that keeps failing maybe this will help.

I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but the wire was pretty thin and the groove fairly shallow, just enough to put a slight indent into the head gasket when I took it off.

I think it is a fairly common hot rod practice, but if you can't find any info I will try to look up more of my info.

Todd

 

[RootesRacer]

So I assume this is an issue with combustion pressure overcoming the gasket and allowing combustion gases to leak into the coolant passage?

In a previous life I had an issue, constantly blowing head gaskets on a Kawaski race bike. I used/reused a flat copper head gasket (that I would anneal "ala" Bill Blue's method to make sure it was soft).

In addition to the copper head gasket, we cut a small groove around the bore and I installed a copper wire "o-ring" in the groove. Some people when all out and put rubber o-rings around the water jackets, the copper "o-ring" around the bore and no head gasket at all.

Since any gasket will not have much material at the site that keeps failing maybe this will help.

I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but the wire was pretty thin and the groove fairly shallow, just enough to put a slight indent into the head gasket when I took it off.

I think it is a fairly common hot rod practice, but if you can't find any info I will try to look up more of my info.

Todd

The term is called "o-ringing", and its very commonly used particularly on turbo engines these days.

The big issue on the rootes engine is the irregular shape of the combustion chamber, the fact that the combustion chamber opening actually overlaps the bore edges, and that the combustion chamber is sooooo close to the cooling passages.

I know of several who actually have o-ringed alpine heads, each were quite expensive since you dont just use a spinning tool to create the groove, you actually have to create a CNC routing profile for the odd shaped o-ring groove.
Of those that go to this length of trouble, they also usually modify the cooling passage position as well to prevent the next weakest link.

I had an idea a while back about having a normal .032 copper gasket made, then copper etching recesses everywhere but where the copper needs to seal so as to create the similar but wider sealing section, much like the stock sandwich gasket functions. Doing so would yield a reusable fully copper gasket with no weak points like with the sandwich type.

 

[sunbeam74]

Andy,

I estimated I was just under 11:1.

I could tell you what gasket I was using but I believe it was in an orange package.... I am fairly certain that I bought it from either Sunbeam Specialties or Classic Sunbeam. They share the same vendors for the most part.

I don't know if it helps but I always clean the head with Wax/Grease remover - I think PPG's stuff - if it matters.

Man, I would hate to have a situation where it is the quality of the gaskets.
There are so many poor quality parts being offered for the Alpine that it is really becoming a pain.



Steve

 

[alpine_64]

Andy,

I was blowing copper gaskets in the exact spot you mention on my street alpine motor, i did 3 in 3 years. (it is running 10.5:1 and a few other things) I ended up modifying the head and the gasket to get rid of the weak point you mention. Here are the photos, no issues since this was done:

BLOWN HG:

MODIFIED HEAD:


CUSTOM HG:

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1130339669054462410SHKlsz]

 

[Ken Ellis]

Does copper hardness play a part here? Do they need to be re-annealed to have softness to seal? Or is softness the culprit, and they need to be harder to resist blowout?
Ken

 

[jumpinjan]

...I had an idea a while back about having a normal .032 copper gasket made, then copper etching recesses everywhere but where the copper needs to seal...

That's a good idea. Doug Stockman had a custom copper gasket made for our 2.0L race engine. I never got a chance to see it, but it was expensive he said. I think it was CNC routered out, but I'm not sure.
I don't know how much lower these low quality gaskets could dip, but if we can't get good quality parts, we are going to be hurting. Maybe this might be a good club project to explore an avenue to get a new vendor to manufacture the gaskets sets. Maybe a new head gasket design.
Jan

 

[RootesRacer]

That's a good idea. Doug Stockman had a custom copper gasket made for our 2.0L race engine. I never got a chance to see it, but it was expensive he said. I think it was CNC routered out, but I'm not sure.
I don't know how much lower these low quality gaskets could dip, but if we can't get good quality parts, we are going to be hurting. Maybe this might be a good club project to explore an avenue to get a new vendor to manufacture the gaskets sets. Maybe a new head gasket design.
Jan

The custom copper gaskets cost about $100 each qty 2. The price would go down in qty, but the cost of copper right now is soaring.

The etching part is not such a big deal, you just need a pump, some ferric chloride a tank heater and a plastic tub.

The part of the gasket you want to keep raised you color over with a resist sharpy. Want to do it better yet and you need to make a silk screen.

I just bought a milling machine, and after I master it as a manual machine, I may well CNC it. If I did that, I could make my own copper gaskets.
I also have a friend who has a laser cutter but hear-tell that high powered lasers dont like copper too much, or perhaps its the other way round.

 

[Tom H]

I thought I read on this forum a year or so ago, that the better head gaskets did not use copper. Is that not true?

Tom

 

[serIIalpine]

Is making this type of copper gasket something that can be cut on a water jet machine. I have a friend that has one in his shop and he's always looking for new to try.

If someone gives me some specs I can look into whether this is something he can do.

I still need another head gasket as well so this appeals to me as well.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[Jim E]

Yes torque the head bolts with the engine stone cold.

THere is an older version of the head gasket that has a copper side and a steel side, these were pretty much avoided once the newer version came out that is steel and a black material.

 

[Tom H]

Thanks Jim. That's te kind I have and that's what I will use. I will not have much higher compression - maybe 9.5 - so I hope I have no HG problems .

Tom