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Head gasket options

Jim E

Donation Time
Watched a build on a Boss 429 and it does not run a head gasket instead you spend a week lapping the heads to the block, so lapping may be a good option.

One thing about running upsized head studs is I "think" you would want to be real careful about any increase in the torque spec. The metal in these heads is not great and would seem you could distort the head pretty easy if you upped the torque, which could just lead to a worse problem sealing the thing up.

Another thing that I find to be a concern or at least I lay awake at night worring about it is the head bolt washers. They are always distorted and have burrs which may lead to false torque readings? I bought a bag of hardened washers to use but the thickness and diameter is different and so never used them instead spend time dressing the factory washers on a file.

The thing that always surprises me is how loose the bolts are when you do the re-torque.
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
because I'm the type of guy that always finds several options I also contacted Gaskets-To-Go and they say they can make us custom MLS gaskets for around $149 which is about the same price for a single copper gasket and a set of custom compression rings from Gasket Works.

I guess at this point we all need to reach a consensus as to which is a better option.

Opinions????

Thanks

Eric
'62 SerII
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Eric:

Has the guy at Gaskets-To-Go seen an Alpine head gasket? Does he know the combustion ring is not round? From what I could gather, that is what was stopping Cometic from making one for me. I'm just wondering why, besides this fellow at GTG possibly being hungrier than the guy at Cometic, this guy thinks he can make them when Cometic told me quite plainly that they lacked the tooling for such a project? Frankly, I hope he can but, if not, the Gasket Works guy is ready to go. I have volunteered to send him a brand new head gasket to use as a template if necessary. All he wants at this point is specific instructions from us.

Unlike some of the guys on this list, I'm not going to have the luxury of waiting around for someone to make a bunch for the club. I've got another race coming up and must get my car back together. However, if the club does come up with such an animal, I'd certainly be interested in having one or two for spares.

Please keep me informed and let me know if I can help out in any way.

Thanks,
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Eric:

I'm sorry...one more thing. The Cometic MLS gasket I saw the other day for the Mini-Cooper had four riveted tangs on it, two per side, which hold the assembly together for correct fitment. Please make sure that the guy at GTG understands that the Sunbeam gaskets cannot have those tangs on the passenger side of the head due to the way the pushrod cover mounts. If they must be riveted together, they'll have to tang and rivet them on the front and the back of the gasket. I don't have my car here right now to look at, but come to think of it, the water pump may be in the way of a front tang. Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea.

Thanks,
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Eric:

Don't know if you've hear from anyone else on PM but, for the money, I'd take the MLS gasket option over the copper, provided they could produce it rather quickly. It's the concensus of my mechanic friends that we should use the multi-layer gasket rather than the copper. Not that the copper one won't work, but the MLS gaskets seem to cure a lot of ills on these and other old cars. Please keep me informed.

Thanks,
 

am99ey

Gold Level Sponsor
.. came across this headgasket.com
Don't know if this is of any help. I actually don't have a problem with the HG (yet).
 

Duke

Donation Time
One thing to consider. MLS gaskets are particularly sensitive to the surface preparation of the aluminum head and iron block. The Roughness Average (RA) of the head and block surface needs to be at 20 or below. A quality shop will have a profiometer that can measure this. If the head and block are not prepped correctly, the expansion rates of the aluminum vs iron will cause the rubber coating on the MLS to tear then thus leak. The RA of 20 and below will allow the head to actually slide on the gasket and not catch. Believe me, I have BTDT and have all of the T-shirts.

Here is what a RA of 16 looks like -

269576_409_full.jpg


This is a picture of a 3.5L BMW head that I used on a turbocharged engine.

Here is lots of reading if you are interested -

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar996.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/ic010532.htm

http://www.artsautomotive.com/machineservices.htm

http://www.valvedirectory.com/valve_04122006.html

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us80222.htm
 

Green67Alpine

Former SAOCA Membership Director
Platinum Level Sponsor
Any updates on this "project"? When it comes time to pitch in, I'm in for two.
I have no doubt that you guys that know what your doing will decide on the best gasket...... those are the ones I want....

Tom j

Was smashing bugs......... now puffing smoke...water vapor I believe..
 

gordonra

Donation Time
btw,

I changed the head on mine before my long trip.

Used Copper Coat as was suggested here and so far it's worked out fine. Time to re-torque the head now.

Rich
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Well, I've noticed that someone is looking for an update on my head gasket project on my Series I vintage racer. I ended up having the folks at Gasketworks out in California make me a solid copper gasket with stainless steel compression rings around the cylinder holes. I also had them NOT stamp the banana-shaped holes in the gasket for the two water passages per cylinder in the block, but instead had them just stamp the holes to fit the water passages themselves. This way there is more gasket material in the area between those passages, which is where the head gaskets seem to want to let go. We are almost finished with the reassembly (I've had a lot going on lately and it hasn't come together as fast as I would have liked it to). It should be running this Saturday, however.

I already have a few bits of info to pass along to everyone, though. First of all, the quality of the product from Gasketworks is outstanding. The material that was used was .032" copper sheeting that was annealed after the stamping was done. If memory serves, the stainless steel compression rings were made from .005" material and, as you can image, they are paper-thin. The gasket comes with very detailed instructions for proper installation. As it turns out, the compression rings were the most tedious things to mess with as you have to install them after the first coating of Coppercoat, or whatever type of copper sealant you wish to use. Let me tell ya', folks...they ain't easy to put on without making a mess of the sealant!!! I suggest a very steady hand, some tweasers and, for those of you who are visually challenged (like I seem to be getting...my arms aren't long enough anymore, if you get my drift...), a big magnifying glass. However, once they are on, the instructions will tell you to continue putting light, dusting coats of copper sealer on both sides of the gasket (by the way, the compression rings go on the head side of the gasket). Once you allow that to tack up, place the gasket on the block; ONLY THEN do you install the head studs, lest you scrape the inside of the stud holes on the gasket as you slide it past the threads on the studs, creating a rough spot on the gasket. Once the gasket is down and the studs are in place, slide the head into place and torque it down to 10 lbs. The instructions say that it's best, if you have the time (which we did), to leave it torqued to 10 lbs overnight, then follow the regular torquing sequence the following day. The alternate instructions for that, in case you were having to do this at the track between races, was to torque it in sequence to 20% of it's total torque value each time around. One thing to remember with a gasket like this is that, being solid copper, it will not crush like the regular head gaskets will. In other words, it's .032" when you take it out of the package and it'll be .032" after it's torqued. They make them thinner for you guys who want to run compression into the stratosphere, or thicker for a more real-world compression ratio.

Now, for the disclaimer...you knew there had to be one, right? I ordered the gasket in time to get it installed and get the car sorted and ready for it's next race, which was this coming weekend. The guy told me that he would make the gasket that day and ship it the following day. Consequently, I arranged my schedule around that quote. After a week had gone by, I called him, only to find out that he hadn't even made it yet!! He apologized all over himself and promised me that I'd have it to me before the next weekend. This time, he came through but the damage had already been done. The bottom line is that, with my work schedule and other committments, the car will not make the race this weekend. If only I had gotten the gasket when I was supposed to have I'm sure I would have made it. So, the moral of this story is to make sure you build in a little extra time for a slip-up like this; I didn't and it bit me pretty hard.

Anyway, I'll let everyone know how it works once we get it running. There is a possibility that I'll have to use some kind of stop-leak product to keep water from weeping out from between the head and the block; I've been told by several folks who have messed with copper head gaskets to go ahead and pour the stuff into the cooling system before I fire it, just as a matter of course. I hate that crap, but I may end up having to use it. Again, I'll keep everyone up on how it goes. Please wish me luck...GOOD luck, that is...

Take care,
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Well, then, thank you, Eric Funk!!!! Mordy Dunst is the guy, all right. I had actually told him not to punch the banana-shaped holes for the water jackets and that we would punch our own holes for the water jackets to match the block. I about died when I opened the package to find the two circular holes per cylinder for the water jackets, wondering how he knew where to punch them since they don't sit at either corner of that banana-shaped hole. Once I test-fitted the gasket to the block, I realized that he must have had a block template to go off of. So, hats off to Eric Funk and the Nuclear Banana!!!!
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Yeah, sounds like he reproduced Erics gasket for you.

Eric told him where to put the holes, since he welded up the crescents and pluged the holes in the block which lie inside the crescent.
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Well, everyone...the copper head gasket is on and the car seems to be running fine. As a matter of fact, it sounds very strong! We got it back together on Saturday morning and, after timing it and setting the valves, we fired it off. She started on the second crank and seemed to be fine. The only problem I encountered is that my header wrap seems to have gotten saturated with coolant from the head gasket blowing incident (seems that that the pressure in the cooling system blew the top off my puke tank and undoubtedly some of that water got onto the header wrap). So, I'm sure it'll quit smoking after that all burns and/or bakes off.

So far, no leaks are present. I did not put stop leak in the cooling system, preferring to wait to see if I actually needed it or not. So far, it appears that I don't need it, but I've got some just in case. I'd rather not have to so I'm waiting until I see otherwise...

This was actually a good car weekend for me. Not only did I get the Alpine back on song, but I finished the repair and reassembly of my Tiger's cooling system. After four long, agonizing months of not being able to drive the Tiger, I finally got it out and drove it around yesterday. Man, what a feeling!!! I am a fan of all things Rootes, but I especially love the my Tiger!!!

If anyone needs or wants the info concerning the head gasket that I got for my Alpine, just contact me and I'll fix you right up. Good luck to everyone this summer and keep the 'Beams on the road!!

Take care,
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Anything in the way of a group project or purchase come from this?
Andy, I sent you a PM.

I am surprised that in all the discussions (this one and others) about Copper vs Black/metal sandwich HGs no one mentioned that the black/metal one is about 0.020" thicker, adding about 3 CC to the combustion chamber and dropping CR nearly 5% (9.3 to 8.9 in my situation).

I had gathered the consensus was that the black/metal HG was more reliable in normal, street use. But not wanting to lose any CR, I plan to go with the copper HG. But if this custom gasket is a reasonable alternative maybe I should go this route. Or is a 9.3 CR low enough to not require anything special and that a std copper HG will be fine.

Andy, are the "o-rings" made of round wire or are they made of flat material? You mention 0.005 material and I had envisioned 0.005 dia wire, but a flat ring 0.005 thick sounds a bit easier to handle.

Thanks,

Tom
 

mototron

Donation Time
So now that years have past since this was done
how long did the copper gasket with the O rings from Mordy
Hold up ?
Has any one come up with a MLS Gasket ?
Any one Try anything different or new ?

Just Curious ,since I blew My head gasket last weekend at Lime Rock
But did get all the races in thanks Bars leak headgasket in a bottle
 
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