• Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.

    If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.

    Enjoy.

ferrari anyone?

Nickodell

Donation Time
Speaking of that ......

"Honey, I sunk the Ferrari"

File0032.jpg


Before anyone corrects me, I know that "I sunk" is grammatically incorrect. It's meant as a play on "Honey I shrunk the kid," also ungrammatic. (Sunk, like shrunk, is a past participle, and thus can only be used as part of a compound verb: e.g. I have sunk; I have shrunk. The popular misuse is as bad as I drunk the beer, or I rung the bell.)
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
Sink, sank, sunk.
Shrink, shrank, shrunk.
Think, thank, thunk.

English. You gotta love it.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nobody ever said English was logical!

Sometimes past participles become past perfects. E.g: up to about 50 years ago the verb "spin" went as follows:

Present tense: spin
Past perfect: span (believe it or not)
Past participle: spun.

So to be correct then you had to write/say "it span out of control." Today, that has totally disappeared, and you would use spun.

Just one illustration that English is a living, evolving, language, unlike, say, Spanish, or French, which have single authorities that serve to protect their languages against modifications and foreign intrusions. English, itself, is a mongrel language, using Saxon, Norman French, German, Latin, Greek, Arabic, Modern French, and dozens more words. And this is one of the things that makes English, to me, a fascinating language from which I learn something new almost daily; much more interesting than other languages that go on the same, year after year.

So "I shrunk the kid" will, inevitably, be correct English in years to come.
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
Nick, George Bernard Shaw was one of the resolute linguistic revisionists, and he proposed various grammatical and spelling reforms for English. Given this, can you tell me a logical way, given English (and American) orthography, that GHOTI should be pronounced? No cheating by checking Google!

Sam
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Ah, dear old GBS. He was the originator, as I'm sure you know, of what he called "John Bull's other language," with simplified and rationalized spelling. It got nowhere, of course.

He had several examples of the irrationality of English spelling, the best known being GHOTI, which he said could equally be pronounced FISH:

GH as in enouGH
O as in wOmen
TI as in many words, e.g. moTIon.

He also penned a little ditty illustrating the many illogical pronunciations of ough:

There was a young lady of Slough [a city in England, rhyming with OW]
Who went for a ride on a cough,
The cough went to bough,
The lady fell ough,
She never rides on animals nough.

My mother, who would have been 100 this year, wrote a little poem for me about the time when I began to read, which I still have:

I take it you already know,
Of tough and bough and cough and dough,
Others may stumble, but not you,
On hiccough, thorough, lough and through,
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a tricky word,
That looks like beard but sounds like bird,
And dead - it's said like bed, not bead,
For goodness sake don't call it deed!
Look out for meat and great and threat,
They rhyme with suite and straight and debt;

A moth is not called moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother,
And here is not a match for there,
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's dose and rose and lose,
Just look them up, and goose and choose,

And cork and work and card and ward,
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart,
Come, come, I've hardly made a start!
A dreadful language? Man alive!
I'd mastered it when I was five!
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
"Fish," is right. You've done your homework, I see.

I always give my poetry students a list of those -ough words and ask them to figure out the rhyme scheme. "Slough" is often "slew" in the South. The possibilities are:

off
ew
uff
oh
ow (plough in Brit spelling--can't think of any American ones oughhand)

Is there an "aw" as in "thought"? Surely. Cole slough?
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
How about bough?

I teach (part-time) Remedial English and TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages) on two (separate) nights each a month. The first class is English speakers (more or less English, that is) with poor grammar, composition and spelling, the second Spanish, and a few Oriental language, speakers coming in with only rudimentary spoken, and virtually no written, English. The hardest part for them is the wildly crazy inconsistencies of the spelling and pronunciation. That and getting them to pronounce the "th" sibilant sound, and explain why it's a soft sound in, for example, thing, but hard in that. "No, Eduardo, try again. Class, repeat after me: That thing they thought. You think you have problems .....

Funny story: When I started this three years ago, on an unpaid volunteer basis, after a couple of months I was called into the office of the District Superintendent, who told me "we have to pay you." When I asked why, she said the teachers' union was threatening industrial action if they didn't either get rid of the volunteers, or pay them union rate. No problem with me. The next problem was that the union complained that they were employing "unqualified" (yeah, with an MA and BS, and a TESOL certificate) teachers, and again threatened industrial action.

The whole episode was like part of the Peter Sellers/Terry Thomas/Ian Carmichael film "I'm alright, Jack." Remember; the union, led by Sellers's shop steward Fred Kite, complains that Carmichael's doing the work, that their contract agreed would take two men one day, in half a day. When Personnel Manager Thomas fires Carmichael, they come out on strike because the company is victimizing a union member.

A compromise was reached by the school district calling us "temporary, casual labor."
 

Rsgwynn1

Silver Level Sponsor
Bough. Duh. Reminds me of a poem someone wrote where the Elizabethan dogs all went "bough-wough."

I guess if you were teaching French speakers you'd get "Zat sing zey sought." I wonder if speakers of Castillian Spanish would have any problems with the th-sound. "Cathtillian," that ith.
 

skywords

Donation Time
Nick
How do you teach proper English to the duh generation? You should hear them on my school bus. They speak another language with signing. I am voting for a bulkhead between between me and the students and also removing the seats, they don't use them anyway and just put sawdust on the floor.
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
Nick,
Reminds me of the complaints that my brother wasn't qualified to substitute in JR high or high school math at one point. This is a guy with a masters in math and a doctorate in high energy physics. Was finishing up his dissertation during that time and they complained about his being in the introductory algebra class.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
As regards fluency and literacy in our own language, to paraphrase Shakespeare: The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the kids but in ourselves. With some very honorable exceptions, teachers generally represent the bottom quintile of the SAT scores, and teaching colleges spend far more time on the latest fad, psychology, "methods," etc., and less on the core subjects, or specialized knowledge in the subjects they are going to teach. Much teaching time is wasted in soft, feel-good subjects like "self-esteem," rather than the core subjects whose mastery is essential in this world. Education experts reckon that half the time spent in teaching colleges is pure waste. In many school districts, math and science teachers have no formal qualification in their subjects. The blind leading the blind. And, as I have written before, many - perhaps most - teachers are themselves functionally illiterate. And we wonder "why Johnny can't write." Universities complain that the freshman year is often nothing more than remedial work on subjects that should have been mastered in high school; this probably accounts for the fact that American universities schedule four years for a Bachelor's degree, whereas it is three in Europe.

The main culprits are the unions. They have managed, through their immense political influence, to hinder the "special qualification" scheme, where highly educated and experienced men and women, from the professions and industry, can take a short course and then teach their specialized subjects, such as chemistry, physics and engineering, in high school - subjects where qualified teachers through the normal teaching colleges are rare indeed. The unions have fought, successfully, against incentive, or performance, pay for the minority of teachers who are both highly qualified and dedicated. And here in Pennsylvania, the unions have such sway that we are one of the few states that allows teachers to strike. Bills come up regularly in the state legislature to ban teacher strikes, but get nowhere. In my school district, the teachers struck three times a few years ago, and the school board caved and awarded them a 60% raise over three years. And my school taxes went up by $1,200.

What did we get for the money, or the $13,000 a year it costs for each pupil? Three years ago, Middle School teachers were required to take basic examinations in the core subjects (the "Three R's") and their own specialized subjects. The tests were so basic - a level that would have caused no sweat for an average high school student 40 years ago - that they should have all aced them. The result? 40% failed overall; in some districts it was over 60%. The state education department was so embarrassed that they hid the results until a citizens' Freedom of Information petition forced them to come clean.

Fire an incompetent, or lazy, teacher? Don't make me laugh. I don't know how many stages such a procedure would take in my home state, but in the New York City school system, with its tens of thousands of teachers (and an administrative staff bigger than that in all of Europe), there are 20 stages or appeal, arbitration, re-appeal etc. And it takes between two and three years, during which time the suspended teacher is on full pay. And the last time I checked, fewer than 20 were fired in a year.

Children are genetically programmed, from birth, to absorb languages - a throwback from early man when it was essential for survival for children to speedily learn to understand warnings of danger. This trait disappears before the teen years, just at the time when most school districts begin to try inculcating a foreign language. By then it becomes a chore.

In Europe they begin language instruction in Kindergarten, so it is not unusual to find pre-teen kids fluent in at least three languages. I'll never forget when my wife and I were lost in Holland, being approached in our car by a boy who couldn't have been more than 8 or 9. Not being sure of our nationality, he tried three different approaches: "Kann ich Ihnen helfen?" [blank stares from us]. "Puis-je vous aider?" [An attempt by us to reply, in our halting school French]. "Never mind, sir, can I help you?"

Here, it is unusual for children, unless they have educated and involved parents, to have mastered their own language, much less another. Why? Ask the average teacher (again, I emphasize, with honorable exceptions) to describe the proper use of "lie" and "lay," and their past tenses, or why "so fun" is incorrect, or why "this criteria" is wrong; ask them how to place an apostrophe to show possessive, plural, and plural possessive, and you'll get a blank stare. Ask them when to use "its" and "it's," or where to use a colon or semicolon.

The usual excuse is: "Oh, that's not important so long as the message is clear." We've see it here, on these fora (singular forum, plural fora): "Upper case lettering and most punctuation is unnecessary except in formal writing. It just wastes time." And I say baloney!

So what else could we expect from our kids, receiving as they do little English instruction in school, with illiterate teachers and parents, and using their own shorthand to communicate via email and text messaging?
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
In regards to the original content of this topic before the inevitable rail roading the UK based classic mags reported a 260Z based GTO replica selling for 20K, they noted bar the rebody it was all datsun.

As for the value of fluency and literacy if people don't have the basic ability to follow a single train of thought, ie: stay on topic or follow an argument without mindless wandering onto other subjects, i'm not sure it's that valuable a skill.

It seems rather useless to be able to eloquently and correctly respond, engage with or answer someone if you can't answer or engage with the subject matter. If i ask someone what time it is i don't want to know the average rainfall in holland.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
If i ask someone what time it is i don't want to know the average rainfall in holland.

Or even in Holland?

I have the same suggestion I made to you a year or more ago: If you are bored/offended/upset at people interpreting General Chit Chat (Webster: "Small talk; gosip") literally, DON'T READ THEIR POSTS!
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Or even in Holland?

I have the same suggestion I made to you a year or more ago: If you are bored/offended/upset at people interpreting General Chit Chat (Webster: "Small talk; gosip") literally, DON'T READ THEIR POSTS!

HUH????

Hey Nick
I do enjoy the banter and I do read it.That does not mean I always agree with what is being said.
 

skywords

Donation Time
The general trend in this forum when a car is modified on it's exterior is to bash the fella who performed the operation because it doesn't meet with taste of the reader. I myself look at the quality of the conversion and how the lines blend with the original. And God help them if they have modified an Alpine. Even if the Alpine they started with was a corroded hulk destined for the smelter.

I have my own tastes in an automobile's exterior but when I see young people modifying cars in the low rider tradition or any other for that matter I commend them for they are learning basic and advanced automotive skills that will give them the ability to see any project they start to a conclusion regardless of our opinions.


Many or most of these young auto modifiers are admittedly better and more creative than I. So hats off to the wanna be Ferrari.

I have a troubled teen on my bus that I have been trying to open up to. I asked him if he had any hobbies such as model building, skate boarding etc.. He replied " I break things, Burn things and Blow things up" I once had to pull off the road and separate a fist fight he was engaged in. We have a lot of work to do with our youth. So if there is anyway any of us can make a positive difference in a child's life we should do it.

Nick you just keep on writing for I enjoy reading your posts even if I don't agree with you. I wish I had a Micro Fart's worth of your literary talent.

Oh my I'm getting off topic / Sorry
 
Top