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Ethanol the right way?

65beam

65beam

Donation Time
ethanol

bill,
the cost may be 1.00,but you're forgetting two big items. that's the state and federal taxes . in ohio that's .464 cents per gal for conventional gas and .412 for ethanol. also keep in mind that not all 2008 GM cars can run on E85 .my 2008 GMC can not be run on more than a 10% ethanol blend and no thing with methanol . biodiesel is another problem waiting to happen due to being so corrosive .we can't haul these type of fuels in our trucks ( semi's or straight trucks ) due to the problem of seals failing and leaks developing . the DOT frowns on trucks with that problem. there are breaks in taxes ,etc on these fuels but you would have to be in the business to understand .for instance ,a fuel nozzle for conventional gas may cost 40.00. for E85 a nozzle is 120.00 plus the extra cost of the rest of the equipment needed . one local school system switched to biodiesel and polluted a creek when it speeded up the corrosion of the underground tank and it leaked .i'm not against alternative fuels, but with the profit margins that the average private c store owner works on ,the government needs to make funds available to the average joe to make this work,and that won't happen .the cost of doing business in ohio is high now with the cat tax,epa fees,lust tax etc. i guess what i'm saying is this . bill ,don't try switching your sunbeam to E85.i don't think there are that many of your motors left out there!
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
When I get the beam out here after the thaw, the first thing I am going to do is to remap the engine for E85. With programmable fuel injection, and oversized injectors, its a breeze to run E85. 12/1 CR is exactly what E85 likes.

BTW, E85 costs about $2.00 a gallon locally, which puts it pretty close in cost per mile compared to gasoline.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Gas in this part of S.E. Pa contains 10% ethanol. While it works fine in cars, other than a small reduction in mpg, it has given me problems with my standby generator. Twice I have been unable to get it to start without draining the fuel and refilling the tank. The second time I noticed that the gas was cloudy, the ethanol component having apparently absorbed moisture since the genny lives outside and the tank is not vapor-sealed like a car's. Also, while you usually use up the gas in your car in a week, or less, it sits in the genny for weeks on end, in hot weather and cold, dry and humid, and ethanol will absorb its own volume of water, given enough time.

The solution was to drive out of the county (Chester Co.) N.W. into Berks Co., where they don't add ethanol, with a couple of 5 gal. cans and get the genny's gas there. It's a Pennsylvania government mandate that gas sold in the four counties contiguous with Philadelphia (Chester, Bucks, Montgomery and Delaware), and Philadephia County itself, have to use the 10% ethanol mix, and cars registered in those counties are subject to mandatory annual inspections, while counties farther out can use straight 100% gas.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
65beam said:
bill,
the cost may be 1.00,but you're forgetting two big items. that's the state and federal taxes . in ohio that's .464 cents per gal for conventional gas and .412 for ethanol. also keep in mind that not all 2008 GM cars can run on E85 .my 2008 GMC can not be run on more than a 10% ethanol blend and no thing with methanol . biodiesel is another problem waiting to happen due to being so corrosive .we can't haul these type of fuels in our trucks ( semi's or straight trucks ) due to the problem of seals failing and leaks developing . the DOT frowns on trucks with that problem. there are breaks in taxes ,etc on these fuels but you would have to be in the business to understand .for instance ,a fuel nozzle for conventional gas may cost 40.00. for E85 a nozzle is 120.00 plus the extra cost of the rest of the equipment needed . one local school system switched to biodiesel and polluted a creek when it speeded up the corrosion of the underground tank and it leaked .i'm not against alternative fuels, but with the profit margins that the average private c store owner works on ,the government needs to make funds available to the average joe to make this work,and that won't happen .the cost of doing business in ohio is high now with the cat tax,epa fees,lust tax etc. i guess what i'm saying is this . bill ,don't try switching your sunbeam to E85.i don't think there are that many of your motors left out there!
Click to expand...

No, I'm not forgetting. I know the buck a gallon figure is production cost, may not even include a profit for production. But I figure the current cost of "gasoline" is two bucks a gallon at the wellhead. That means this source of ethanol is viable in terms of economics. The really great part is they are speaking of intercepting trash on the way to the landfill and converting it to ethanol.

This is the second time you have mentioned the corrosiveness of biodiesel. Is this simply a matter of improper seal material? Is it corrosive to the engine components?

By the way, was just kidding about converting Stroms to etoh. Don't think there are any etoh statons within 25 miles of me. Besides, I don't have Stroms. But if this stuff is what they claim it to be, I think within 5 years it will be a topic of wide discussion.
 
TulsaAlpine

TulsaAlpine

Donation Time
Oklahoma from Oil Captial to E85 Captial

:D
Interesting things are happening which I find humorous actually. Seems the Northern states have embraces the E85 but here no one, not one station sells E85 in Tulsa. The local colleges OSU and OU have done all this ground breaking research and found the answer to producing E85, lets remember no one sells it in Oklahoma. They use saw grass or some type of native grass that grows in abundance in Oklahoma and this is the answer to making E85. Again the oil companies keep it out of our state, hmm
Just my 2cents from Okie land.

Donna
:D
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Let me add a little fodder to the discussion.

Were you all aware that E85 isnt always E85?

Depending on where you live and the time of year, they alter the qty of ethanol to gasoline.

Why?

You ever try to start and engine at 20 below on alcohol?
Rotsa Ruck.

Apperantly, out here during the winter months, we are getting 70% ethanol, 30% gasoline, and that can be pretty hard starting when its real cold out.

The only way you are going to be able to run E85 with its year round variations would be tune your engine for a worst case "85%" proper air fuel ratio,
and accept the richer running you get when they add more gasoline.

OR...

Run fuel injection with one of the new fuel constitution sensors (like the car companies use in the new flex fuel vehicles), which tells the engine management what the percentage of Ethanol to Gasoline you have in the current fuel.
 
TulsaAlpine

TulsaAlpine

Donation Time
Yep that's correct!

My 06 Impala is a flex fuel car and Yep it has all that high tech computer that will adjust the jets so you can either fill up with E85 or at half a tank top it off with gasoline. Why I bought this car since NO ONE in Tulsa sales E85 I am still kicking myself, well OK it does have better seals (neoprene) and it did not cost more for this E85 flex fuel car. Actually in fact the DOD V8 Impala cost a whole lot more then my low end E85 car. I did get a service bulletin last fall that if I was using E85 they have a new upgrade for the computer that will adjust the mixture so performance and fuel economy improves. Like duh no one sales E85 in this oil rich town and my car with 45,000+ miles has NEVER had a whole tank of E85 run through it. I do feel confidence when I pump Wal-Mart gas with 10% Ethanol that my Impala will never have problems with the cheap non-tier gas, Wahoo! I get around 28 mpg in my big old full size car, its a good car very happy with it just annoyed about a fact no one sales E85 here.

Donna
:D
 
Ken Ellis

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Displacement on Demand - turn off the cylinders you don't need at the moment.
Like the Cadillac of 12 or so years ago, but it apparently works well now.
Wish I could retrofit it to my Suburban... I'll just have to hold out for Mr. Fusion.

Ken
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Ken Ellis said:
Displacement on Demand - turn off the cylinders you don't need at the moment.
Like the Cadillac of 12 or so years ago, but it apparently works well now.
Wish I could retrofit it to my Suburban... I'll just have to hold out for Mr. Fusion.

Ken
Click to expand...
Actually that was 26 years ago.I have an 81 eldorado with the 4,6,8 engine.Very nice shape.will sell reasonable if you want a white on white with white leather interior.157000 Kilometers
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
E85

there is only one c store within a hundred mile radius of us that sells E85 .it's the law of supply and demand. no one sells it because no one wants it.mileage is less on E85 also.and since there are so few cars in this area that can use it ,a c store owner is not going to invest the money in the inventory and equipment to dispense it .if you were working on the thin margins selling gas at the pumps,would you tie up the money for something that does not sell fast enough to turn your inventory and recover your investment ? we have to monitor the water in the stores that we supply with 10% ethanol because the ethanol will cause the water to form balls that will block the pickups and shut the pumps down .

the dod 5.3 is available in the GMC envoy denali, but i had such good luck with our last one with the 4.2 inline six that we stayed with the 4.2 .there is only 15 horses difference and 45lb/ft of torque that i didn't feel it was worth it to try the 5.3 . from everything i have heard the new dod engine is a work of art. i just don't have a use for it.
 
jumpinjan

jumpinjan

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hey Bob,
I have a complete 4.2L I6 on my engine stand. I'm eventually going to get it running on the test stand. Its a really neat engine
Jan
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
4.2 engine

jan,
they are a fantastic engine ! i put 97000 on the last envoy in a 4 year time. most of those miles were all road miles towing a car trailer to somewhere. i was able to top the mountains on I68 at 70 to 75 mph with the trailer and car . with the hitch and weight bars ,it handled great . my old envoy had a 3.42 gear but i had the 3.73 put in the new one so i hope it tows even better. i averaged 12 to 14 mpg towing while keeping the OD locked out . we will be heading east sometime in march so i'll know how the new one does.the motor is really great and the rev limiter on the new one is set @ 6500 RPM.it just never seemed to falter. the only trouble i had with the old one was that i replaced the cam position switch twice but it never quit running.actual horsepower of 400 + is not bad for 250 C.I. i've told jean several times that i wish i could shoehorn this motor into a beam .the 08 that i have puts 295 horse to the ground . they are a great vehicle and we'll probably buy another in a few years if they still make them .the variable cam timing,the fuel injection ,every thing is great . i'm sold on them!
 
M

mikephillips

Donation Time
I read an article that claimed you can get the same mileage from E85 as gas, but you need to run a race car like compression of 13.1 or so.
 
TulsaAlpine

TulsaAlpine

Donation Time
That's what I heard also!

;)
If you run just E85 you can lean out the car and get better gas mileage, why they have a new program for my Impala computer controlled fuel injection. The service bulletin stated that I only needed the upgrade IF I used E85 on a regular basis. Seems it is the hardest on the cars to alternate and run gasoline then a tank of E85, but the new cars are flex fuel not E85 only so this does seem to cause problems with design and performance with the new cars they are selling as flex fuel. Stepdaughter just bought a 07 Ford Focus that is also E85 compatible flex fuel car but like I said earlier, NO one sales E85 in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The way I feel is the cars that have the E85 flex fuel systems will have better seals and better computer technology for the fuel injection so they should last longer, at least I hope so! Maybe some day in the far far future when a gas station gets enough kahunas to go against the oil companies and start selling E85 in this area I can start doing my own analogy on performance. Quick Trip owns this town, and the nearest gas station I know of that sells E85 is in Adair, Oklahoma at a independent owned Shell station. This station is close enough to Missouri to have them swing down and deliver the E85, station is located on OK-69 heavy truck traffic a major road. Just hope they don't shut him down, rumor is the oil companies will refuse, out of gas, can't stop by to sell gas to these stations.

Donna
:D
 
TulsaAlpine

TulsaAlpine

Donation Time
65beam said:
there is only one c store within a hundred mile radius of us that sells E85 .it's the law of supply and demand. no one sells it because no one wants it.mileage is less on E85 also.and since there are so few cars in this area that can use it ,a c store owner is not going to invest the money in the inventory and equipment to dispense it .if you were working on the thin margins selling gas at the pumps,would you tie up the money for something that does not sell fast enough to turn your inventory and recover your investment ? we have to monitor the water in the stores that we supply with 10% ethanol because the ethanol will cause the water to form balls that will block the pickups and shut the pumps down .
Click to expand...

Its not supply and demand here in Oklahoma its the politics and the oil companies that own this town. There are more cars & trucks on the road right now in this town that are flex fuel then there are diesel and yet every C station in this town sells diesel that requires a separate tank in the ground. They could clean and refill all those diesel tanks with E85 and start selling the fuel within a week. Problem is then the C station could not get gasoline delivered to the station. Do I know this for a fact, well no but my family now owns 2 cars that are flex fuel and no diesels. Just start counting all the impala's with one tail pipe every one of those cars will be E85, all the new 07 Ford Focus and all the Chevrolet big SUV's and pickups guess what they are flex fuel also. Ford has jumped on this also see this website for All those vehicles that are E85 compatible: http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

Donna
:D
 
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