Electrical Issues: Voltage Stabilizer

[mxp01]

Gentlemen:

As some of you know, my son recently converted our Sunbeam from positive to negative ground. There is one complication:

- In the Spring we installed a voltage stabilizer to the car. We purchased this at the recommendation of this forum from a gentlemen who makes them himself. The stabilizer worked perfectly. However, Cade has informed me that he burned this stabilizer out, leading to the following questions:

1. Can someone recall the name of the person who makes these voltage stabilizers?
2. Are these voltage stabilizers polarity sensitive?

Please let me know,
Mike Pennell

 

[Series3Scott]

The gentleman's name is Ed Esslinger and the units are polarity sensitive.
Ed made up his last batch just before Invasion, and I'm not sure if any are left.

I don't have his contact information with me, but somebody on this forum should be able to get it to you, if Ed doesn't spot this thread himself.

 

[Ken Ellis]

I'm pretty sure Ed's device is polarity-specific. If you had a positive ground one, and then changed the car to negative ground, then the magic smoke that makes it work was probably released. Although he indicated he was not longer going to build them himself, I believe he was going to make circuit diagrams available (and maybe fabrication instructions as well) so that folks could make their own. If that is the case, it's not a complex circuit, and could probably be easily built or repaired in your existing case. Most of the work of a device like that is engineering a way to make it easy to install correctly, (and also difficult to install incorrectly) which Ed's product did nicely.

I ran across another solid state voltage regulator in ebay for about $16US plus three bucks shipping from UK ("buy it now" price) listed for an MGC. Haven't used the UK one, but I've used Ed's for about three or four years and it works great.


Ken

 

[mxp01]

Thanks for the replies.

Ken: Do you feel the MGC stabilizer will work in the Alpine?

Also: If anyone has Ed's contact info, please let me know.

Thanks,
Mike Pennell

 

[coolcat]

Gauge Regulator

If the resistor and wiring are not burned, You can convert your regulator to negative gnd. by installing a new 10V 5W Zaner Diode with the white band on it to white wire. You will have to drill out the pop rivit to get to it. Sorry I only have one positive groung unit left and have no more parts to make any more. Unless some one wants to buy a 100, thats the only way I will make any more. Regards Ed
PS I thought Jan was going to be making some of these up.Ed

 

[jumpinjan]

Ed & Folks,
Yes, I agreed to carry on with Ed's tradition, and I'm tooling up to get there.
(I just purchased a $900 bandsaw to do the cutting & use it for other things)
I have two units to sell if you want them.
Jan

 

[mxp01]

Ed: Thanks for the reply.

Jan: Do you have a negative ground stablizer for sale? If yes, how much? Send check to where?

Thanks,
Mike Pennell

 

[Green67Alpine]

Ed & Folks,
Yes, I agreed to carry on with Ed's tradition, and I'm tooling up to get there.
(I just purchased a $900 bandsaw to do the cutting & use it for other things)
I have two units to sell if you want them.
Jan

Ahhh, Love band saws what kind did you get. A very handy tool indeed.
tom j

 

[Ken Ellis]

To answer the posted question, I don't know for sure if the MGC item would work. According to the description, it does the same job, but without more info on the item, I couldn't say.

But the good news is, Ed posted the possible repair. Note that repair of the MGC device would be impossible, since it seems to be 'potted' in epoxy. Nice to see repairable electronics nowadays... plus the polarity switch option, too.

And it's also nice to see that Jan got another tool. He is so short on tools, hardware, and projects that it does my heart good to see him in acquisition mode.

Here are my guesses, Jan... Rikon or Powermatic (for vertical bandsaw) or Welles (for horizontal) Close?

Ken
9x16 Kalamazoo horizontal
18" Craftsman Industrial wood/metal, circa 1956
12" Craftsman consumer, circa 1975
9" Crapsman VS benchtop (3 wheel), circa 1990.
(Terrible bandsaw, but you can carry it one-handed.)

 

[sunbby]

While I prefer people give SAOCA members their business...

Moss Motors now makes a solid state reproduction that uses an original type housing $16.95. I haven't purchased one or thoroughly checked it out and verified the pin-out but I would be surprised if they are not direct replacements.

http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/products/PDF/131-555.pdf

 

[jumpinjan]

I recognized the part in the Moss regulator. Its a 3A linear voltage regulator and that's it. I don't believe they ever made a 10v version, but I'll check the parts catalog
Jan

 

[sunbby]

I recognized the part in the Moss regulator. Its a 3A linear voltage regulator and that's it. I don't believe they ever made a 10v version, but I'll check the parts catalog
Jan

It could be an LM317 type with some small chip resistors we can't see to set the output voltage.

 

[Tom H]

This almost surely uses the LM7810, (or UA7810) the 10 V version of the 78XX series:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/LM/LM7805.pdf

Buy it at Digi-key for under $1.00.

I like the way Moss put this into the module style package

Tom H

 

[gordonra]

This almost surely uses the LM7810, (or UA7810) the 10 V version of the 78XX series:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/LM/LM7805.pdf

Buy it at Digi-key for under $1.00.

I like the way Moss put this into the module style package

Tom H

I don't have first hand experience and haven't read the data sheets, but heard from someone else that the 7810 doesn't have the resistance to the voltage spikes that can occur within an automotive electrical system, and that the LM317 is more robust. Granted the 7810 is an extremely simple connection, the LM317 doesn't require much more.

 

[Tom H]

Rich, Could be true. I have no real experience with these in this application. But the specs sure look similar in terms of protection, thermal shut down, etc. But while looking I found a couple more thoughts:

These regulators -incl the 317 have a min volatge across them of 3 V. So they might quit working when the battery V dropped below 13 V. Probably not a problem.

Also take a look at some who have actually used a 7810:
http://www.imps4ever.info/coollist/98aug/winding.html

And also looking at a previous post by me:
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6012&highlight=gauge&page=2

I see that full scale on each gauge takes about 132 mA, So the circuit needs to supply about 270 mA max total. With 14.5 V in and 10 V out @270 mA, that's a little over 1 watt. Might need a heat sink.

Tom

 

[gordonra]

Rich, Could be true. I have no real experience with these in this application. But the specs sure look similar in terms of protection, thermal shut down, etc. But while looking I found a couple more thoughts:

These regulators -incl the 317 have a min volatge across them of 3 V. So they might quit working when the battery V dropped below 13 V. Probably not a problem.

Also take a look at some who have actually used a 7810:
http://www.imps4ever.info/coollist/98aug/winding.html

And also looking at a previous post by me:
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6012&highlight=gauge&page=2

I see that full scale on each gauge takes about 132 mA, So the circuit needs to supply about 270 mA max total. With 14.5 V in and 10 V out @270 mA, that's a little over 1 watt. Might need a heat sink.

Tom

I thought it would be neat to get some old voltage stabilizers, clean out the can to mount a 7810. Then I read something about it being less robust than the 317. Just haven't taken the time to investigate. It'd be nice to keep the same package, and functionally equivilent.

Rich

 

[Ken Ellis]

I've been worried about voltage spikes/transients with some of the stuff I plug into my cig lighter in both the Alpine and in other vehicles. There's a thing called STOP used for boats which is designed to be wired-in and provide a safe, stable, medium-current regulated 13.8 VDC source for laptops, gps units, etc. I've been considering getting one/some for various vehicles. Taking the output of the STOP device and feeding it into a well-designed regulator circuit would seem to be pretty safe (and somewhat overkill) for the gauge PSU function.

Don't know exactly what's in a STOP, but it's likely something like an overly-high-current Zener on the input side of things (at about 15V or so), and then a good voltage regulator circuit, or switching PSU feeding the output. Probably just as important is protecting against undervoltage swings... perhaps a "thumper stereo" 1 Farad capacitor to bridge the gaps?

Of course, we could just carry an extra gallon of gas and an pocket infrared thermometer and be done with it.

Ken

 

[Tom H]

Ken, I was curious about this but could not find much via google. What I could find was devices that cut off the voltage from a battery when it got too low for safe operation of the steering, or before it lost enough power to re-start a boat motor.

I don't think there are big voltage surges or spikes in an automotive system, except maybe during starting. You mention a big capacitor. There are not much bigger "capacitors" than a 12 V lead-acid battery! I have not studied this so there may be something I am missing , but in general I would think of a car battery as a big transient stabilizer.

And as to infrared thermometers and an extra gallon of gas.... Well where's the fun in that??

Best,

Tom

 

[Ken Ellis]

Oops, my bad on the name. It's really "STO.P" and the website
is: http://www.sto-p.com/pfp/index.html

Yes, the battery is the biggest capacitor in the system. I was thinking of a two-pronged approach... Transient limitation via Zener, and 'brownout' protection via 'local' capacitor. A small gel cell battery behind the dash would work, instead of the cap. A side benefit is that, if you have both a clock and a master battery disconnect switch, creative wiring would mean you don't have to reset the clock. As much.

Ken

 

[mxp01]

Gentlemen:

I've been following the thread here that I started earlier this week. As an electrical novice, I currently feel like Curley from the Three Stooges when he would rapidly rub his hands over his face and viciously shake his head (to jar his brain?).

Let me ask for a summary: What voltage stabilizer would you buy if you were in my shoes? I'll consider repairing the existing unit, but I want to buy a replacement.

Thanks,

Mike Pennell