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Chicken Little

skywords

Donation Time
The sky is falling, the sky is falling, Oh I mean the caps are melting, the caps are melting. Well sumbeach Tipper the electric bill is how much this month? Twelve hundred dollars? Ah geeeeze just buy somemore carbon credits. What do you mean we need solar panels? The press is asking why we use so much power? Why it takes alot of power to run this green machine!

Gore's tipical ride

DSC_1339%20Gulfstream%20IV%20N5NG%20left%20side%20landing%20m.jpg
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Rick, I think the real issue here is that technology (thermal depolymerization) exists to make all of the "petroleum" uses carbon neutral in that it uses existing carbon sources for fuel. Why is that not being eploited on a national scale? If it was, nobody would give a crap who burns fuel, how much, or what they burnt it for.

Bill

Oh, and by the way, can you imagine what would happen to our view of world affairs if we did not have to cozy up to every nation that had a hole in the ground that gushed oil?
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Hi, Rick. The only time the electric bill on Algore's Tennessee mansion (one of his four houses) is that low is if nobody is living in it that month. I believe the monthly average is more like $2,200. And the much-touted carbon-exchange program that is his excuse is with .... wait for it .... his own company.

Algore is just the most egregious example of the hypocrisy among so many Limousine Liberals: Do as I say, not as I do. Look at the Kennedy clan: "Wind farms are a wonderful idea. What's that; off Nantucket, where, from the top floor of our mansion we would be just able to see it six miles out at sea? Not a chance. Build it somewhere else."

Liberals bemoan our increasing importation of oil, but block any exploration off most American coasts, or in ANWAR (might upset the mating habits of the Moose), and have also prevented the buiding of one new nuclear power station or oil refinery in over 30 years (and lack of refining capacity is the main cause of soaring gasoline prices. Crude oil prices have been falling for months, but the cost of refined fuel like gasoline, diesel or fuel oil continues to rise. And don't blame the oil companies; they are still making a net profit of just 8c a gallon).

It's all similar to the problems of illegal immigration and Islamic terrorist cells in the USA, either or both of which can and probably will destroy this country and its way of life in the next 10 or 15 years; the solutions are simple and effective, but looney liberal bedwetters (we mustn't be nasty to the illegal aliens or Islamics preaching the destruction of America) like Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy and Barbra (my initials spell B.S) Streisand and the rest of Hollywood will ensure that it never gets done.

You and I will not live to see the final catalysm, Rick, but our kids and their kids will. And as all American social services totally collapse under the weight of 20 or 25 million uneducated (average 4th Grade) illegals (estimated by the Heritage Foundation to cost up to 3 trillion dollars), or in that last microsecond as a nuke supplied to Islamic terrorists by N. Korea or Iran explodes, they will curse us for a do-nothing generation.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Guys, as long as you continue to talk about drilling new holes, who uses how much energy, or how much gasoline we use or should use, you are going to lose. Those are all short term patch jobs and doomed to get us into trouble further down the road. The answer is total petroleum independence and that can come only from nuclear or renewable sources.

The technologies are here and they aren't biodeisel or E85, two other stopgap "answers".

Bill
 

skywords

Donation Time
Can't argue with either of you Nick and Bill. I was just posting this as a chuckle after I saw Gore was going green. I have written letters till my fingers hurt about these issues and my opnions but to no avial. We are nothing more than spectators and need to laugh once in a while at these folks. I feel like a grain of sand on the beach. But even a grain of sand can be an irratant in the right spot. :rolleyes:
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Can't argue with either of you Nick and Bill. I was just posting this as a chuckle after I saw Gore was going green. I have written letters till my fingers hurt about these issues and my opinions but to no avail. We are nothing more than spectators and need to laugh once in a while at these folks. I feel like a grain of sand on the beach. But even a grain of sand can be an irritant in the right spot. :rolleyes:


Rick,

Is that why they came to be called "pearls of wisdom"? :D
 

lemansvk

Donation Time
While you sneer what you see as the hypocrisy of people like Gore, I don't imagine you will be so vocal when the neo-conmen of your own extreme right wing of politics jump on the climate change bandwagon - which they soon enough will, when the opinion polls show it is popular. Our own Prime Minister (Georges pacific deputy sherrif, John Howard) has recently tried to do this - after a decade of denying that climate change existed, he is suddenly not only a 'convert', but one with all the answers. These apparently involve burning more coal and going nuclear (which all the independent data suggests will need to be heavily subsidised) plus a token miniscule investment in renewables. Oh, and a tax on Carbon emissions which 12 months ago he said would not work. Funny that this 'conversion' has happened in an election year - but of course he is not actually going to anthing about it until 2012.

When's the White house up for grabs again? betcha we see plenty of magic solutions suddenly appearing out of the Bushes then. Oh, and before you brand me a 'Liberal' be aware that I'm not - I dislike the loony left as much as the ratbag right. Most of all, I'd like to see political rhetoric and ideology (in the guise of chit-chat) expunged from this forum. Can't we talk about something important like beer

Vic

Hi, Rick. The only time the electric bill on Algore's Tennessee mansion (one of his four houses) is that low is if nobody is living in it that month. I believe the monthly average is more like $2,200. And the much-touted carbon-exchange program that is his excuse is with .... wait for it .... his own company.

Algore is just the most egregious example of the hypocrisy among so many Limousine Liberals: Do as I say, not as I do. Look at the Kennedy clan: "Wind farms are a wonderful idea. What's that; off Nantucket, where, from the top floor of our mansion we would be just able to see it six miles out at sea? Not a chance. Build it somewhere else."

Liberals bemoan our increasing importation of oil, but block any exploration off most American coasts, or in ANWAR (might upset the mating habits of the Moose), and have also prevented the buiding of one new nuclear power station or oil refinery in over 30 years (and lack of refining capacity is the main cause of soaring gasoline prices. Crude oil prices have been falling for months, but the cost of refined fuel like gasoline, diesel or fuel oil continues to rise. And don't blame the oil companies; they are still making a net profit of just 8c a gallon).

It's all similar to the problems of illegal immigration and Islamic terrorist cells in the USA, either or both of which can and probably will destroy this country and its way of life in the next 10 or 15 years; the solutions are simple and effective, but looney liberal bedwetters (we mustn't be nasty to the illegal aliens or Islamics preaching the destruction of America) like Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy and Barbra (my initials spell B.S) Streisand and the rest of Hollywood will ensure that it never gets done.

You and I will not live to see the final catalysm, Rick, but our kids and their kids will. And as all American social services totally collapse under the weight of 20 or 25 million uneducated (average 4th Grade) illegals (estimated by the Heritage Foundation to cost up to 3 trillion dollars), or in that last microsecond as a nuke supplied to Islamic terrorists by N. Korea or Iran explodes, they will curse us for a do-nothing generation.
 

lemansvk

Donation Time
While you sneer what you brand as the hypocrisy of people like Gore, I don't imagine you will be so vocal when the neo-conmen of your own extreme right wing of politics jump on the climate change bandwagon - which they quickly will, if the opinion polls show it is popular. Our own Prime Minister (Georges Pacific deputy sherriff, John Howard) has recently tried to do this - after a decade of denying that climate change existed, he is suddenly not only a 'convert', but one with all the answers. These apparently involve burning even more coal and going nuclear (which all the independent data suggests will need to be heavily subsidised) plus a token miniscule investment in renewables. Oh, and a tax on Carbon emissions which 12 months ago he said would not work. Funny that this 'conversion' has happened in an election year - but of course he is not actually going to anthing about it until 2012.

When's the White house up for grabs again? betcha we see plenty of magic solutions suddenly appearing out of the Bushes then. Oh, and before you brand me a 'Liberal' be aware that I'm not - I dislike the loony left as much as the ratbag right. Most of all, I'd like to see political rhetoric and ideology (in the guise of so called 'chit-chat') expunged from this forum. It generates lots of heat and noise, but little forward motion. Can't we talk about something important like beer?

Vic

Hi, Rick. The only time the electric bill on Algore's Tennessee mansion (one of his four houses) is that low is if nobody is living in it that month. I believe the monthly average is more like $2,200. And the much-touted carbon-exchange program that is his excuse is with .... wait for it .... his own company.

Algore is just the most egregious example of the hypocrisy among so many Limousine Liberals: Do as I say, not as I do. Look at the Kennedy clan: "Wind farms are a wonderful idea. What's that; off Nantucket, where, from the top floor of our mansion we would be just able to see it six miles out at sea? Not a chance. Build it somewhere else."

Liberals bemoan our increasing importation of oil, but block any exploration off most American coasts, or in ANWAR (might upset the mating habits of the Moose), and have also prevented the buiding of one new nuclear power station or oil refinery in over 30 years (and lack of refining capacity is the main cause of soaring gasoline prices. Crude oil prices have been falling for months, but the cost of refined fuel like gasoline, diesel or fuel oil continues to rise. And don't blame the oil companies; they are still making a net profit of just 8c a gallon).

It's all similar to the problems of illegal immigration and Islamic terrorist cells in the USA, either or both of which can and probably will destroy this country and its way of life in the next 10 or 15 years; the solutions are simple and effective, but looney liberal bedwetters (we mustn't be nasty to the illegal aliens or Islamics preaching the destruction of America) like Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy and Barbra (my initials spell B.S) Streisand and the rest of Hollywood will ensure that it never gets done.

You and I will not live to see the final catalysm, Rick, but our kids and their kids will. And as all American social services totally collapse under the weight of 20 or 25 million uneducated (average 4th Grade) illegals (estimated by the Heritage Foundation to cost up to 3 trillion dollars), or in that last microsecond as a nuke supplied to Islamic terrorists by N. Korea or Iran explodes, they will curse us for a do-nothing generation.
 

Jeff Scoville

Donation Time
While you sneer what you brand as the hypocrisy of people like Gore, I don't imagine you will be so vocal when the neo-conmen of your own extreme right wing of politics jump on the climate change bandwagon - which they quickly will, if the opinion polls show it is popular.
When's the White house up for grabs again? betcha we see plenty of magic solutions suddenly appearing out of the Bushes then. Oh, and before you brand me a 'Liberal' be aware that I'm not - I dislike the loony left as much as the ratbag right. Most of all, I'd like to see political rhetoric and ideology (in the guise of so called 'chit-chat') expunged from this forum. It generates lots of heat and noise, but little forward motion. Can't we talk about something important like beer?

Vic


I'm all for the beer too eh.
The White House is up for grabs next year.
But the Bush's won't be coming up with solutions for thier own benefit per-say, as he has served his limit of 2 four year terms.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Hi, Vic; thanks for the pleasant comeback. Taking your points, if one can call them that, in order:

"what you brand as hypocrisy of people like Gore." Uh, what would you call it? Maybe you have a better description.

"neo-conmen of your own extreme right wing of politics." Wow; you must be gifted with extrasensory perception, knowing how I vote. FYI, I have always voted for the person - both in local, state and federal elections - whom I believed at the time to offer the best policies, irrespective of party. E.g: Carter (first election I was eligible to vote) Democrat; Mondale (Dem.); Bush 1 (Republican), Dukakis (Dem.), Clinton (Dem.), Bush 2 (Rep.)

"if opinion polls show it is popular." Opinion polls right now show that most people in the USA, having been given only one side of the story, are concerned, or very concerned about climate change.

The media - both press and TV - here is overwhelmingly left-wing and also overwhelmingly push what Rick called "the sky is falling" point of view, usually without any mention of the scores of scientists worldwide (including in OZ), including eminent climatologists and meteorologists, who say that global warming either:
a) may be happening but is simply part of a normal cycle that has been going on since the planet was formed, is caused by variations in solar output, volcanic eruptions and other natural phenomena, and mankind has no more influence on it than he has on earthquakes; or
b) it is not happening at all (unless you call less than half a degree F in 50 years signs of doom).

Gore's An Inconvenient Truth movie has been condemned by the same scientists as bogus, exaggerated and misleading. A movie puncturing Gore's fakery ("Convenient Lies") was screened in Britain last year, but the "sky is falling" movement, which has now become BIG BUSINESS, has so far prevented its showing here, and I guess down there too. Some schools and colleges here are requiring students to watch screenings of the movie, and in come cases will be given a failing grade unless they write the "correct" answers in tests.

As just one of scores of fallacies: Gore repeats the lie about CO2 levels causing warming; however, the graphs he shows in the movie are doctored to prove a pre-arranged conclusion. What they don't show is:

a) CO2 level increases follow, rather than preceed, warming (climate warming increases vegetation decay processes, the products of which are CO2 and methane, itself a much more potent greenhouse gas);
b) the greatest increase in CO2 levels was during the 30 years from 1945 to 1975, during which global temperatures decreased;
c) although glaciers are retreating in some places, they are expanding in others, including your next-door neighbors in New Zealand, and in many places in the Arctic and Greenland where they are retreating, they are also growing more thick;
d) glaciers have been expanding and retreating since the dawn of time. Much of N. America is sculptured by the expansion and retreat of glaciers, including the Great Lakes and even Central Park in New York City, where today you can touch boulders that were pushed ahead of them by glaciers from thousands of miles up north, then left there like prehistoric monoliths.
e) far from Gore's film's scary scenes of millions of square miles of land disappearing as the seas rise by 20 feet, most responsible scientists state that the maximum that could ever happen is a rise of maybe 12 inches , and even that is unlikely. Take a glass of water, fill it to 1/2 inch from the top, and then float some ice cubes in it until the water reaches the brim. When the ice melts, how high has the water risen? Not at all, of course.

And many of the "global warming" scientists (and other, non-scientist alarmists) were predicting global cooling, even the earth entering another ice age, just 30 years ago.

For a good exposure of this nonsense, read Michael Crichton's book State of Fear."

Bush has been excoriated for not signing the Kyoto Treaty. However, that treaty requires only developed countries like the USA (and OZ) to cut back on carbon emission and fossil fuel use. "Developing" (i.e. backward) countries like China and India are excluded. However, look at satellite pictures of the earth and you will see a brownish-yellow smudge, starting in India and gaining strength over China. That is caused by the millions of coal-burning fires in homes and power stations. Those two countries, excluded from Kyoto, are building, or planning to build, 2,200 new coal-fired power stations by the end of the century (that is, two per month); at the same China's automoble and truck pollution is expected to increase by a factor of 15. Do you see them being condemned in the UN? No, of course not; that is reserved for the USA and other western countries, despite the fact that China's automobile pollution increase alone will negate all the reductions by all the western nations combined, and is projected by the International Energy Agency to become the world's leading emitter of greenhouse gases by the end of this year. Two weeks ago China's economic planning agency released a 62-page report rejecting calls to slow this growth.

If you don't like "political rhetoric and ideology," why do you read it? As soon as you saw the subject matter, why torture yourself? Why not just click off? That's right, I said click off.:D
 

weaselkeeper

Silver Level Sponsor
Yesterday, the discovery channel had a series of great programs on emerging power technologies. Actually, some serious advances in existing tecnologies but becoming affordable and realistic.

-A massive windfarm off shore from the Netherlands being built and currently supplying power.
-Fusion research in England.
-Tide Generators in the Hudson River supplying power to a grocery store. small start, but can be multiplied easily.
-A massive solar power station envisioned in Australia using heat and moving air driving turbine generators rather than photocells.

Gives a person hope.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Yesterday, the discovery channel had a series of great programs on emerging power technologies. Actually, some serious advances in existing tecnologies but becoming affordable and realistic.

-A massive windfarm off shore from the Netherlands being built and currently supplying power.
-Fusion research in England.
-Tide Generators in the Hudson River supplying power to a grocery store. small start, but can be multiplied easily.
-A massive solar power station envisioned in Australia using heat and moving air driving turbine generators rather than photocells.

Gives a person hope.
Is that the "cold" fusion process that seems to work? Heard something about that recently, very exciting.

A person has to wonder why this process is so thourghly neglected by the media:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization
Seems that every landfill or transfer station could serve as a source of high quality diesel fuel and metane gas.

Another interesing one that can produce gas (not gasoline) from most any carbon source:
http://www.santillimagnegas.com/

For every unit of energy used to clean polluted water, this process gives about 4 units of energy in the form of a gas that is burnable in an internal combustion engine and produces breathable exhaust!

The best part of these processes is they utilize materials that are normally a costly disposal problem. Two fuels that can be used by vehicles now on the road, but the mainstream press and politicians can only talk about ethanol and biodiesel.

Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Cold fusion is a myth, consuming more eneregy than it produces, and most scientists put it in the same category as perpetual motion machines. But there are several non-polluting energy sources available right now, e.g. solar, wind, tidal and riverine, and many that could be expanded, such as hydroelectric.

Why are we only now starting to think about them, and still really doing nothing much but talk about it?

a) They are all long-term projects that won't be on line for a decade or more after the first shovel of earth is turned over. I.e., there's no votes in it, and nothing to ensure politicians' reelection;
b) There's always someone ready to lodge endless lawsuits to hold up, or prevent, their building. NIMBY.

It makes one wonder how such massive projects as the railroads and Interstate Highway System ever got built. Meanwhile, people babble on about the wonders of ethanol, ignoring the unpleasant facts that:

a) if all the corn being grown, including that presently used for food (including to export to starving 3rd-world people) were devoted to making ethanol, it would provide, at most, 8% of our fuel needs today, and less in coming years;
b) The immediate effect of diverting food corn into ethanol would be a steep rise in food prices, probably enough to make us wish for $3 a gallon gasoline again;
c) (This bit is ludicrous, but illustrative) - if all the arable land in the USA were turned over to corn-for-ethanol production; all the wheat, soy, millet, beet, citrus fruit, vegetable, etc. etc. growing areas, it would still only replace some 30%. And we would be importing 100% of our food, making us even more vulnerable to people who would do us harm;
d) You can't send ethanol across the country by pipeline, as you can gasoline, diesel and fuel oil; it degrades and absorbs water. It has to be transported by road tanker. Dirty, polluting tankers. (Do we want another 25,000 of them on the roads?)
e) It produces its own pollution. The by-products of ethanol burning include (in addition to CO2) formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, both known carcinogens and ozone-depleters. If you've experienced your eyes stinging when you were around a buffet where the trays were heated by Sterno (which is jellied ethanol), imagine how it would be like on the roads, surrounded by millions of Sterno-burners.
f) Many studies say that, when all the factors such as fuel for farming and processing the corn, the fertilizer, and heat necessary for distillation, cost of transport, etc. are included, ethanol results in a net energy loss, and costs so much to produce that, without the current subsidy (your taxes) it would not be viable until gasoline reached over $6 a gallon.

The ethanol thing is a perfect example of politicians being in the pockets of big business, in this case agri-giants like Archer Daniels Midland. To make it work all you have to do is convince the gullible public that it is the answer to rising gasoline prices and its CO2 emissions that are dooming the planet. And, as usual, opponents trying to show the actual facts are (as with global warming), shouted down and called fascists, etc.

Hybrids? Forget it. The nickel used in their batteries comes from virtually a single source, Sudbury, Ontario. The mining of the ore has turned the whole area - hundreds of square miles - into a polluted moonscape. And that's just for the nickel we use at present. How about increasing output, and its pollution, by, say, 50 times? And what do we do if another war results in (as in WWII) all the nickel being appropriated for armaments?

And a recent study of the best-known hybrid, the Prius, says that when you include all the factors and energy involved in producing the batteries, and disposing of them every 5 or 6 years, a little Prius costs far more to run, overall, than a huge Hummer. Have you noticed that Honda quietly dropped the hybrid Accord?

What's my answer? Term limits on politicians. Have a constitutional amendment making all of them, senators and representatives alike, subject to the same maximum 2 x 4 year terms as the president and vice-president. If a man can't make his mark in 8 years he should be doing something else. Today politicians, representatives especially, begin campaigning for their reelection immediately on gaining office. Their current two-year term was OK when the country was founded. Public Service meant just that, 200 years ago. It was never intended by the Founding Fathers to be a career. A man left his farm or law office to serve for maybe one or two terms, with little pay, and then went back to his previous occupation. And senators were not even elected originally, they were appointed by committes in the various states.

With term limits, and not having to seek reelection, they can finally put their energy to doing something good for the nation, even if they won't personally benefit from it.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Sounds more like a right wing conspiracy to trick tree huggers into supporting profits for big corps. :rolleyes: ;) :D
 

phatt

Donation Time
The ice in the glass thoery would work if all the ice were in the water. Unfortunately, Most of the ice in the form of glaciers is on the land. There is so much ice on Antarctica that if it were suddenly removed the continent would rise several hundred feet. 35,000 years ago we were in the last ice age and the coastline was much further out into the the present ocean. Then the ice melted. The sea level did rise. there is no question about it. There also were no man made influnces on the atmosphere other than fires built by people and these were negligible. This was the natural progression of the Earth's geology. For years before this debate was taking place, scientists said we were at the end of the last ice age and the Earth should heat up! The problem is that we tend to think our own importance is magnified beyond scope. If the scientists of 50 years ago were right 1. the sea will rise 2. land will be flooded, and 3. there isn't a stinking thing we can do about it!
Have A nice day!
P.S. I'm going to Alaska in July. I'll let you know what I find.:eek:
 

skywords

Donation Time
The ice in the glass thoery would work if all the ice were in the water. Unfortunately, Most of the ice in the form of glaciers is on the land. There is so much ice on Antarctica that if it were suddenly removed the continent would rise several hundred feet. 35,000 years ago we were in the last ice age and the coastline was much further out into the the present ocean. Then the ice melted. The sea level did rise. there is no question about it. There also were no man made influnces on the atmosphere other than fires built by people and these were negligible. This was the natural progression of the Earth's geology. For years before this debate was taking place, scientists said we were at the end of the last ice age and the Earth should heat up! The problem is that we tend to think our own importance is magnified beyond scope. If the scientists of 50 years ago were right 1. the sea will rise 2. land will be flooded, and 3. there isn't a stinking thing we can do about it!
Have A nice day!
P.S. I'm going to Alaska in July. I'll let you know what I find.:eek:

In my neck of the woods they say the catus are in danger. When I go fly all you can see is hundreds of miles of catus. The Pigmy Owl they say is indanger also but they are like house flys nesting in every nook and cranny.

And if you fly to Alaska in a small plane up the coast and look east you will see an ocean of timber as far as the eye can see.

And if you look at my beer mug it is empty.
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
The railroads got built mostly in the 1800s where it was part of the manifest destiny vision of America, and a much smaller population to be impacted. The highway system , well, that was to keep the communists from overrunning the country since Eisenhower sold it as a national defense need for quick movement of troops and supples. This is not a criticism of either of these, I think history has proved that on the whole the benefits outweighed the costs.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
The ice in the glass thoery would work if all the ice were in the water. Unfortunately, Most of the ice in the form of glaciers is on the land. There is so much ice on Antarctica that if it were suddenly removed the continent would rise several hundred feet. P.S. I'm going to Alaska in July. I'll let you know what I find.:eek:

True, but all the Arctic ice mass floats on the sea (there is no Arctic continent), so if it all melted it would not raise the sea levels one millimeter. The chance of the Antarctic ice melting are not even suggested by the "Sky of Falling" scaremongers. It is so far down the planet, and receives the sun's rays so indirectly and diffused, that even if the natural 1600-year cycle of global warming occurs as predicted it would not have a noticable melting effect on a continent where the year-round temperature averages around zero degrees.
 
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