Caroline's Project-series 1

[Alpine 1789]

Forgive me if this sounds like the kind of advice you give to dumb blonds (and let the record show that my blond wife has been recognized as the coolest wife in Sunbeamland), but don't forget to turn the ignition key before you try to push start it. I once had a bunch of guys pushing my car all over a parking lot while I tried to pop the clutch before I realized that the ignition wasn't on. I didn't have the heart to tell them that it was my fault. Just asked them to give it one more try after I quietly turned the key.

 

[ladybeamer]

I am not sure the engine is free. I tried the backward thing because it's on the ramps-thus backward would have been easier if I could have done it.
I've got three high schoolers coming over tomorrow after school. I'll get the car off the ramps-I can push it if it's out of gear. We'll put it in 4th and see what happens. I really hope the engine isn't seized. The guy said the car ran-yes I'm naive. The hubby just doesn't see the potential in the car. I know it's going to be great-once it's done.
I didn't want to pull the entire engine but maybe I should.
Can anyone tell me what the glass bubble things are? They look like filters. In the pic you can see one at the top of the engine in the Z direction and the other one is lower in the Z. Should there be 2or did someone possibly add one and leave the old one?

 

[ladybeamer]

don't forget to turn the ignition key before you try to push start it.

DB here-no I didn't have the key even in the ignition. I guess I didn't think about it since I didn't have it in while jumping the solenoid.
Thanks for helping me save face with the high school guys! Never would have lived that one down.

Brunettes are just artificial intelligence.

 

[sunbby]

The car is up on ramps so I thought it would be easy to try the backward thing-wrong. DBQ-(dumb blond question) Does it need to be in gear or out? I had it in gear and tried to push- it wouldn't go. I didn't know if someone needed to be in the car with the clutch in and then pop it when it started moving. Harley-my daughter wasn't around so I tried it alone.
I banged on the started and put the wrench across the terminals but still no spinning noise from the starter.

Hi Caroline, are you sure that the engine is free to spin? Sometimes after sitting for an extended period the pistons stick in the cylinders. I would suggest get the car on level ground, pull all of the spark plugs, put the transmission in 4th with the key off, then try to rock the car back and forth. Watch the fan and see if it moves. Jeff

Caroline,

Just to be clear, I was talking about 2 things;

The first thing is checking if the engine is free; just like Jeff mentioned. In this case you do not need to have the key on because you are just trying to see if the engine will move, but it does need to be in gear, I think you were doing it correctly. Also the car will not move that much, only a few inches should make the engine move slightly. Yes it is hard, but with some teenage help I think it should be fairly easy, I would suggest taking it off of the ramps though. If you are more ambitious and remove all of the spark plugs as Jeff suggested it should be much easier to turn. Make sure to label all of the spark plug wires somehow so you can reconnect them in the proper order! Cylinder #1 is at the front of the car.

Bump starting the car, like down a hill, is another thing. This is trying to actual get the car running. In this case, as Jim stated, you need to have the key in and turned on (and have someone behind the wheel!)

I have been thinking more on this and actually it sounds very similar to my car when I got it. It was an impulsive eBay buy that turned out to be a little "over represented", shall we say. Anyway, sometimes I turn the key and nothing happens, sometimes it even loses all power afterwards (the ignition light stays off). I found it was the connection of the ground cable to the body and sometimes the cable to the battery. They seem pretty tight, but if I move the connection a little, it starts right up. Since you said you disconnect the ground and reconnect it, I would make sure you clean up all of those connection and make sure the terminals are tight (clean and tighten the power cable too). If this connection is bad, even shorting the starter solenoid will not work.

Again - good luck,
Todd

 

[ladybeamer]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll try the following:
1. check the battery connection-they appear tight but Pos. may not be getting connected tight enough when I put it back on. I'll also check the pos. to the body connection.
2. check for engine freedom-no key, in gear-pushed by the gang
3. If the engine is not free I'll try some of the Marvel Oil
4. If it is free I'll try popping the clutch on the hill, I can pull it back up the hill with the truck. I guess if this is the case I need a new starter motor?

I've been reading and thinking, should I clean out the gas tank BEFORE trying to start it? The car hasn't been registered since 04 so could have been sitting for 5 years. I was thinking about using KBS tank restoration kit.

I have been thinking more on this and actually it sounds very similar to my car when I got it. It was an impulsive eBay buy that turned out to be a little "over represented", shall we say.

Glad to know I'm not the only one. Years ago I spoke to Steve off This Old House and asked him how he would start his projects. He said with a saw or a sledge hammer because then he'd have to finish them. My husband (ex now) was not amused when he came home the next week and I'd taken the wall between the front room and the kitchen down to the studs. I spent the next 3 months researching how to remove a load bearing wall.
Moral of the story-the house turned out great (though I was stupid and left it to him) but wouldn't have gotten done if I hadn't done it. I've wanted another toy since the divorce and now I've got one, hopefully it will turn out as nice as some from the past.

 

[mikephillips]

You should at least drain the gas tank of any old gas. If it's also 5 years old all of the additives will have evaporated out of it and you don't have anything usable anyway. And while you're doing that inspect the outside, it may need to come out and be repaired as well to be safe to use.

 

[ladybeamer]

engine update

I removed the spark plugs, put it in 4th gear and tried to push the car with the help of my hubby-no go. We hooked a line up to the truck and tried pulling it with the truck. It just dug into the muddy yard, no fan movement.
I went and got some Marvel Mystery Oil as suggested by Jim the Hermit. I put that in each cylinder and I'll try again tomorrow, if that doesn't work I'll let it sit longer. Hubby is not amused with my purchase but is resigned and willing to help me turn wrenchs. I guess all those early mornings going fishing and hunting in the rain and cold will now pay off.
I'll update more tomorrow.

In an earlier post I asked about the glass bubble things that I think are filters. Does anyone know what they are and why there are two?

 

[jmthehermit]

Caroline, the pistons are seized for sure. Well actually the rings are rusted to the cylinder wall. Trying to free it by pulling it around with the truck will do more damage, either to the engine or trans. The idea is to rock it back and forth with maybe an inch or two roll on the tires using alternate pressure up and down. This puts little stress on the crank, rods and bearings. Also don't skimp on the oil, when they free up turn the crank for a few revolutions by hand and let the oil coat the cylinder walls. You could blow the excess out while spinning the engine with the starter. But please let the oil soak in the cylinders longer than a day. I let mine sit for a week before trying to free it up. The glass bubble thing is the top of your fuel pump. It is held on by a large wire which puts pressure on the glass by way of a thumb screw. One other thing to watch for is your clutch disc may also be stuck to your flywheel so make sure it's free to move too. Jeff

 

[Bill Blue]

Just a couple of off the wall thoughts:

Can a jammed starter cause this? I think I'd pull the starter to be sure the problem is in the engine. A California car (shoot, any car that has not been stored with water in the combustion chambers) should not lock up during 4 years of storage.

Bill

 

[britbeam]

My 2 cents is this It would be nice if you could get the engine to run but if you want long term confidence in your Alpine you should build yourself a good engine. These cars are old and having sat any length of time really shortens the life span. As was stated you can do more engine damage trying to free a stuck engine. I recently brought back to life a motorcycle that sat for 9 years. I didnt overhaul the engine but it was stored inside and it was a very low mileage bike. The 4 carbs were gumed to the max and I had to give a complete cleaning.Im sure someone on this board can tell of the time the bought a Alpine ,freed the motor and drove thousands of miles without doing anything to it right.LOL Build yourself a dependable engine and enjoy your Alpine a long time.
Dwain V6 Krazy

 

[ladybeamer]

I let mine sit for a week before trying to free it up.

Will do. I don't want to cause more problems than I'm trying to solve-patience is not one of my strong points but your right, I'll wait.

The glass bubble thing is the top of your fuel pump. It is held on by a large wire which puts pressure on the glass by way of a thumb screw.

There's 2 of those things, one down in the engine and the other right above that one-are they both fuel filters?

One other thing to watch for is your clutch disc may also be stuck to your flywheel so make sure it's free to move too.

How do I check that?

Can a jammed starter cause this? I think I'd pull the starter to be sure the problem is in the engine.

Would that keep it from turning? I thought that was just to get it to fire?

A California car (shoot, any car that has not been stored with water in the combustion chambers) should not lock up during 4 years of storage.

How would water get in the combustion chamber? when I pulled the plugs liquid came out of a couple chambers that smelled like weak fuel. When I put the oil in the #1 and #4 chamber I could hear it pouring in and quite a bit went in. The #2 held just a little and started running out, #3 held more than 2 but not much more and then started coming out. I put the plugs back in to sit, hubby said if I left them out humidity would get in and rust the cylinder walls. BTY when I pulled the plugs they were dry nasty black.

My 2 cents is this It would be nice if you could get the engine to run but if you want long term confidence in your Alpine you should build yourself a good engine.

I started thinking that very thought last night. What engine would I start with? are there any new engines and trannys that are a fairly straight forward fit? Didn't want to go this route but I do want a car that is dependable and fun. I'm not a speedy person, I like 4 bangers for fuel efficiency or at the most a 6.

I really appreciate everyone's help, C

 

[RootesRich]

Hi Caroline,
Regarding the mysterious glass bubbles, can you post a better pic of these? From what I saw, it didn't look like the fuel pump, but as it was cut off I couldn't tell enough to venture a guess.

Unless you want to pull your tranny (and at this point you don't), you won't be able to tell if your clutch disk is frozen. If it is, rocking the car in gear will easily free it up and certainly isn't the root of your issue. This is a minor problem if it turns out to be stuck.

Can a jammed starter cause the engine from turning? Yes, but unless it was really seized up, it would have released when you dragged the car across the ground as you described.

The only "easy" engine swap would be an Alpine engine for an Alpine engine. Anything other than that will require various levels of fabrication.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you that the Mystery Oil will free up your piston rings. I'm also going to check if there's a Alpine owner in your area that would be willing to spend some time with you and source the issue(s). Sadly, my dad, an Alpine owner since '74, was in Pascagoula a little over a week ago and surely would have made the short drive over to check things out.

Don't give up on the car and keep posting your questions. There's some great guys on this Forum happy to answer any and all questions and together we'll get you driving the car asap.

Regards,

 

[Bill Blue]

Water in the cylinders usually happens when rain is allowed to hit the unprotected engine or it is stored in a very damp climate and condensation becomes an issue. Could also occur if the engine has a blown head gasket. It is something that can happen, but should not be an issue on any car this is in storage, especially in a dry climate.

Bill

 

[britbeam]

Caroline remeber even if your engine is froze it doesnt necessarly mean it cant be rebuilt. If your stock engine isnt your choice then there are other options on the modified forum depending on what you want your Alpine to be,how deep the pockets are etc. First give the marvel mystrey oil time to work .
Dwain V6 Krazy

 

[RootesRacer]

It would be a total shame to take such a nice survivor and put anything
but the stock drive train in it.

The motor could be frozen for any number of reasons, sometimes the
engine has sat so long that the cyls loose the oil film on them and they surface rust, making the rings not want to move on them.

Often in this case, the motor can be torn down and if the clearances arent too
bad, the cyls can take a light hone and the motor reassembled with new rings and bearings.

 

[sharong]

Caroline,
I understand money is tight but rebuilding the engine and transmission is really the best way to go. Past owners may not have given accurate information so you really have no way of knowing what condition your car is really in. Watch the Sunday adds and pick up an engine hoist, I got a set with jack stands, hoist and engine stand for $129, was the best investment I every made. Taking these cars apart is actually very easy. Find a local machine shop you can trust, pull the engine and transmission and have them rebuilt.

I pulled my engine and transmission, called some parts suppliers and got all the parts needed for a complete rebuild. Took everything into a local shop I trusted and gave them the contact numbers for parts in case of need. Turns out the work was really easy, the shop was actually glad to have such an easy job as they were use to big V8’s and such. Took about 2 weeks to get it all back, $800 for the complete engine rebuild, and $400 for transmission. I had to put parts back together, oil pan, fuel pump, intake and such, but now I have an engine and transmission that I know are in great shape and reliable. I don’t have a lot of car experience and I am sure there are some things that I could have done that would have brought down the cost but this is the way I went with this project.

Just for cost comparison I also had a 2.8 V6 rebuilt With a C4 transmission, engine was $1400 and the transmission was $800. I didn’t have to supply any parts so that was a little easier and again I know I could have saved money on some of the work if I did more myself.

The key is to find a local place that you can trust and work with. My local shop said as long as I can get the parts all engine work is basically the same and they can do anything as long as the parts are available. I have AAA in case of need, but having rebuilt reliable components makes driving these cars a lot more fun.

Sharon

 

[ladybeamer]

Regarding the mysterious glass bubbles, can you post a better pic of these? From what I saw, it didn't look like the fuel pump, but as it was cut off I couldn't tell enough to venture a guess.

the first pic is of the top one, the second pic is of the one below the first one. I think they're fuel filters but I don't know why there would be 2 or if they really are fuel filters.

I'm also going to check if there's a Alpine owner in your area that would be willing to spend some time with you and source the issue(s).

That would be fabulous

remeber even if your engine is froze it doesnt necessarly mean it cant be rebuilt. If your stock engine isnt your choice then there are other options on the modified forum depending on what you want your Alpine to be,how deep the pockets are etc. First give the marvel mystrey oil time to work .

I'm hoping the oil will do the trick. I'd like to keep the engine if it's strong. If not I'll have to see what the options are. I don't want a big engine, I'd prefer to stay with a 4 banger. My pockets are definitely not deep. I saved my allowance and ate at my desk for quite the while to save the money for when I found a car I wanted. Unfortunately I was told the car was running and I didn't know anyone in CA to go look at it for me. Water under the bridge now. I'm determined to get this car going, it may take a bit more than I expected but it will run again one day.

It would be a total shame to take such a nice survivor and put anything but the stock drive train in it.

I was thinking about getting an OD if I can find one. I've read that it's best for longevity of the engine. I don't know what that entails so that's for the future.

The motor could be frozen for any number of reasons, sometimes the
engine has sat so long that the cyls loose the oil film on them and they surface rust, making the rings not want to move on them.
Often in this case, the motor can be torn down and if the clearances arent too bad, the cyls can take a light hone and the motor reassembled with new rings and bearings.

If the oil doesn't free it I guess I'll need to pull the head

I understand money is tight but rebuilding the engine and transmission is really the best way to go. Past owners may not have given accurate information so you really have no way of knowing what condition your car is really in. Watch the Sunday adds and pick up an engine hoist, I got a set with jack stands, hoist and engine stand for $129, was the best investment I every made. Taking these cars apart is actually very easy. Find a local machine shop you can trust, pull the engine and transmission and have them rebuilt.

that sounds like very real possibility and maybe the best option. I've obviously never attempted such a feat but I'm willing to do what it takes to get it going. With the help of everyone here I think I can get this great little car going, even if I don't do all the work myself.

I pulled my engine and transmission, called some parts suppliers and got all the parts needed for a complete rebuild. Took everything into a local shop I trusted and gave them the contact numbers for parts in case of need. Turns out the work was really easy, the shop was actually glad to have such an easy job as they were use to big V8’s and such. Took about 2 weeks to get it all back, $800 for the complete engine rebuild, and $400 for transmission. I had to put parts back together, oil pan, fuel pump, intake and such, but now I have an engine and transmission that I know are in great shape and reliable. I don’t have a lot of car experience and I am sure there are some things that I could have done that would have brought down the cost but this is the way I went with this project.

that price I think I could afford. what type of new parts did you need? I'm not sure what parts I'd need to supply them. did they tell you what to get? Was it hard to find the parts? Did you get piston, valves?? I heard it's best to get the valve hardened or something like that. Did you have that done? did you rewire while you had everything out? how'd you find the garage? Does anyone know of a good garage in the South East? I'm thinking in the long run it might be cheaper to have it done professionally. Where there any problems find tranny parts?

I didn't do anything on the car today-let it sit with the Marvel oil and will hope that next weekend it's free. I did get brownie points with the hubby. He doesn't like turning wrenches on anything so I spent the day working on his boat trailer-fixing corroded wiring and replacing leaf springs. Learning to get greasy.

 

[Jim E]

When I adjust valves just put the car in 3rd and use my hands to turn the front wheel, car sitting on the ground. With the plugs out it will roll pretty easy by hand. Sort of sounds like your rings are rusted to the cylinder wall if that is the case you could get lucky and with pouring oil or brake fluid or some such down the bores and rocking the car back and forth get it to free up. I did this with a car last summer or at least tried, in the end it was so rusted that I beat on the tops of the pistons, block of wood and hammer, and it finally freed up.

Then again this is a S1 car right? does it have the original S1 motor? those are pretty well known to spin rod bearings as I recall.

By the way I think brake fluid works the fastest for the breaking rusty rings loose deal.

 

[ladybeamer]

Then again this is a S1 car right? does it have the original S1 motor? those are pretty well known to spin rod bearings as I recall.

Yes it's a S1. What is a rod bearing? Does it mean something inside could be broken?

I'll try the brake fluid. Do I need to try and get the Marvel oil out first? Are these better than the stuff made to unstick stuff, those sprays and what not?

 

[Bill Blue]

Yes it's a S1. What is a rod bearing? Does it mean something inside could be broken?

I'll try the brake fluid. Do I need to try and get the Marvel oil out first? Are these better than the stuff made to unstick stuff, those sprays and what not?

A rod bearing (proper name - Connecting rod bearing) is the bearing that connects the crankshaft to the piston. Yes, the rod bearing is deep inside the engine.

No need to get the Marvel Mystery Oil out, in fact it would be huge job to do so. No one knows how the "unstick sprays" would work in this situation. Brake fluid and Marvel Oil treatments are about as old as the automobile and known to sometimes work, sometimes almost magically. Other times, complete failure. The cost is low and it is worth a try. It takes very little rust to stick an engine.

Bill