Any Ideas?

[DanR]

Appreciate your time...

Jim, Here is a site that has the exact same Installation and Adjustment Instructions that came with my new Holley: http://www.jegs. sourcecom/InstallationInstructions/500/510/510-0-8007.pdf

Everything as best I can tell has been done (with three New Carbs fitted and test run, obtained the same results).... in accordance with these published instructions.

Reference page 3, Figure 4:
1. The "PCV Hose" connection on the carb is hooked to my Valve Cover (new) PCV.
2. The "Timed spark vacuum source" is hooked to my Distributor Vacuum Advance.
3. The "Full Manifold Vacuum source hooks to the air cleaner". This has a rubber stopper in that my air breather does not have a connection (See Paragraph 6. same page: Quote: Reconnect all vacuum lines ......The full manifold vacuum source in front of the throttle body provides vacuum for proper operation of the air cleaner. ....(if so equipped). Is this the culprit?

When testing for vacuum I think I tried all three connections.

In regards to worn cam lobes, I too have in the past experienced that unfortunate happening.

This engine now has about a thousand miles. Runs extremely well when the RPM's are above 1500. There is no noticeable skip, mis-firing or popping!

My friend, a varied experienced auto mechanic has been helping me through this process and from the beginning stated that He believes it has something to do with timing.

If the cam gear and the crank gears are aligned as specified in "all" shop manuals for the FORD (Cologne) 2.8 V6 engine what else could it be if not the cam grind being off? If that be the case, why does it run so well in the upper RPM range?

If perchance I do not get the engine running at idle and it last thru the Summer and into Winter, it will be torn down completely, then maybe, just maybe I will find an answer.

I have another V6 that will be ready any day now slated for one of my other Alpines but possibly a replacement. Man, I sure hate thinking of removing and replacing before I get one of the others on the road.

Again I really appreciate all the help from the Great Members on our SAOCA Forum....

DanR

 

[260Alpine]

Dan, The manifold connection to air cleaner should be plugged. It is to actuate the door in factory snorkel. I would check your vacuum there instead of ported. Even though you haven't found a vacuum leak I would retorque carb and intake to be sure. Are there any other sources you could isolate? Power brake, emissions or leaky caps or hoses?

 

[DanR]

Jim, I thought that was connected correctly, Thanks for confirming.

As to the carb base, I did not use any gasket maker/liquid/paste/etc.... Should or would you do so?

This '67 is not equipped with the Brake Booster.

Otherwise all new hoses. I shall re-check the carb base bolts/nuts. Then, try the starter fluid again.

DanR

 

[260Alpine]

Dan, On your cam/valve timing. Pull #1 plug and have a helper put his finger in the plug hole. Crank by hand until his finger blows out. Check timing mark and if not pointing to TDC your outer damper ring has slipped. Put a new mark below the ring and try retiming. Damper Dudes have rebuilt dampers. Also if TDC on #1 both lifters will be on base circle of cam and rockers will wiggle and not be pushing on valves. Also as Bill said, the key could have broke or slipped also. You have to pull the timing cover to check that. I don't use anything on the carb gasket, just snug down evenly in criss cross pattern.

 

[DanR]

Jim, That is another great suggestion.... sticking a finger in no 1.


I have done it with a long plastic straw.

I'll try that next.

 

[260Alpine]

Dan, I forgot to say to plug the vacuum advance line when checking initial timing.

 

[MikeH]

Dan,

Is this engine running the 2.8 crank or is this one you modified for the 2.9 crank?

 

[DanR]

Thanks for asking.... It is the stock 2.8 V6 Crank

DanR

 

[DanR]

Bad News!

After all this time trying to figure why my '67 Commodore Blue V6 will not idle below 12oo RPM, I thought I'd give the folks that did the grind a call.

I called Delta Cam today and spoke with Ken Quale.

Beware getting a jose grind "unless" you want to race your car....

Atleast that is what I have in my phone conversion.

According to specs (I'll try to upload them) and what I was told. "It is a big cam, there is little to no vacuum for the low idle normally expected in a street car. The cam will really make the 2.8 V6 run very rough.

Without vacuum it "can't idle" under that RPM.

As I have said before it will really go at or above the 2500 RPM range.

AND as I ended the conversation, I asked if they had a milder street cam, the answer was no or atleast that is what I understand. I am to get back perhaps to see if we can come up with a good street substitute.

A possible solution I was told was to find an "offset key" to the cam.

Do any of you guys know of that?

DanR

P.S. Now maybe I;ll get an answer

 

[DanR]

Not good... Will try again,

DanR

 

[hartmandm]

Posting the cam specs image for Dan:

Mike

 

[DanR]

Additional comments by Delta

Thanks Mike...

And here is an additional line Ken Quale had in the attch Spec's

"I see that the card shows 108 intake centerline(ICL). I would try to get closer to 109 ICL."

DanR

 

[MikeH]

After all this time trying to figure why my '67 Commodore Blue V6 will not idle below 12oo RPM, I thought I'd give the folks that did the grind a call.

I called Delta Cam today and spoke with Ken Quale.

Beware getting a jose grind "unless" you want to race your car....

Atleast that is what I have in my phone conversion.

According to specs (I'll try to upload them) and what I was told. "It is a big cam, there is little to no vacuum for the low idle normally expected in a street car. The cam will really make the 2.8 V6 run very rough.

Without vacuum it "can't idle" under that RPM.

As I have said before it will really go at or above the 2500 RPM range.

AND as I ended the conversation, I asked if they had a milder street cam, the answer was no or atleast that is what I understand. I am to get back perhaps to see if we can come up with a good street substitute.

A possible solution I was told was to find an "offset key" to the cam.

Do any of you guys know of that?

DanR

P.S. Now maybe I;ll get an answer

If this were so, then how come no one else running Jose's grind is having the same issue. You'd think this would have been brought up before now.

 

[MikeH]

Here is an old thread about using the 2.9 valves, don't know if this applies to your situation. but Jose posted a comment about the duration in the cam grind.

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?p=24035

 

[260Alpine]

Dan, Mike's cam card shows 5 degrees advanced ground in to compensate for the high duration. I've run some hot racing cams on the street and usually richen the idle mixture and run more initial advance like 14 instead of 10, while still keeping total advance 32-34. I've never seen zero vacuum, usually 6-10 instead of 15-20 for stock cam. That is why I suggested you check that is manifold rather than ported vacuum. Also high duration requires higher compression. You should have 9 to 1 minimum for that amount of duration.

 

[Mike Armstrong]

If this were so, then how come no one else running Jose's grind is having the same issue. You'd think this would have been brought up before now.

This^

I've been around at least a couple 2.8's running Jose's cam and know for sure they're idle was normal and smooth. Seems weird you would get that reply unless your cam grind specs are different from what others have had done in the past.

 

[Ken Ellis]

At this point it would seem worthwhile to directly measure the vacuum, before changing cams. Unless I missed where that was done...

 

[MikeH]

Dan, Mike's cam card shows 5 degrees advanced ground in to compensate for the high duration. I've run some hot racing cams on the street and usually richen the idle mixture and run more initial advance like 14 instead of 10, while still keeping total advance 32-34. I've never seen zero vacuum, usually 6-10 instead of 15-20 for stock cam. That is why I suggested you check that is manifold rather than ported vacuum. Also high duration requires higher compression. You should have 9 to 1 minimum for that amount of duration.

So would the 5 degrees advanced ground in, do the same thing an offset key would do? Also do you know how the card compare to what Jose posted in the thread about 2.9 valves?

"I would suggest having them grind the cam to the following specs: 290 deg. on the intake, and 280 deg. on the exhaust, (these are advertised numbers, not at .050 lift) with as close to .500 lift as your cam core will allow. Install the cam straight up."

 

[DanR]

The reason I finally went to Delta Cams with the question of no vacuum at under the 1000 to 1150 RPM was my guy kept saying it had something to do with the timing.

When I ordered the cam that is in this engine I asked for the "JOSE GRIND" AS WAS RECOMMENDED !

As I have said again and again it is very good from above 2500 and up.

I have the recorded phone conversation with the Delta Cam Rep and will attempt to transcribe later if anyone is doubting my word.

I have NOT changed the cam.

Question to M Armstrong, Mike can you recall what RPM range the V6's you speak of were running? Above 12 hundred RPM?

In order for mine to idle it runs at or above that! And it does run fairly smooth at the same. Ken Q said it would run rough.

All of this has surely baffled me until the Delta Rep sent me the Spec's along with his comments.

What also puzzles me most is that I have not read of any others with a similar situation. Maybe I have one of those 1 in a 1000.

Until I can smooth this out I will keep the engine in the car.

DanR

 

[260Alpine]

Mike, In my experience you help low end by advancing the cam and top end by retarding. Usually 4 degrees moves the power band up or down around 500 Rpm. 290 advertised duration will be approximately 240 at .050 lift. The Buick 350 stroker in Chris's MGB had 4 degrees advance ground in and he advanced it another 4 degrees thinking it would help idle and low end. It did, too much. That cam was 290/300 advertised and around .500 lift. Peak power was at 4900 RPM. Now he has retarded the cam to 4 degrees retarded. Hasn't been dynoed yet but he says a rougher, lopier idle and pulls like a freight train up to 6000 RPM redline.