-
Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.
If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.
Enjoy.
Any Ideas?
- Thread starter DanR
- Start date
tigretr
Donation Time
Dan,
When I said you might have the butterflies closed too far and be compensating with timing, initially I was thinking that you can change RPM's by advancing timing, but upon further thought, I doubt that would be the issue since the motor runs and then doesnt. Even if it was possible to "compensate", the fact that it stalls would indicate a part of the system is unstable. Typically timing and idle (throttle position) are adjusted at the same time to make sure advance at your desired idle is set. Unless your timing was way off this is not your culprit. I was just thinking out loud.
Brian
When I said you might have the butterflies closed too far and be compensating with timing, initially I was thinking that you can change RPM's by advancing timing, but upon further thought, I doubt that would be the issue since the motor runs and then doesnt. Even if it was possible to "compensate", the fact that it stalls would indicate a part of the system is unstable. Typically timing and idle (throttle position) are adjusted at the same time to make sure advance at your desired idle is set. Unless your timing was way off this is not your culprit. I was just thinking out loud.
Brian
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Not that you need more straws to grasp at, but there could be vacuum changes that manifest when it settles down to idle after being run. Maybe from intake/PCV function, or vacuum booster 'bleed', etc.
Something that would be OK when idling from cold start, but cause enough mis-timing to stall things out when returning to idle from a warmed-up condition. But upon re-start, the problem is effectively 'cleared' until the next time.
Or, it's something that is incorrect when verifying/setting timing, and it goes back to 'correct' later on.
You've obviously got enough time behind a wrench that the hoses are in the right place. But if a PCV valve could be bad in a way that causes this (for example -- and I don't know if it could) who actually tests them before installing? I know I don't.
Something that would be OK when idling from cold start, but cause enough mis-timing to stall things out when returning to idle from a warmed-up condition. But upon re-start, the problem is effectively 'cleared' until the next time.
Or, it's something that is incorrect when verifying/setting timing, and it goes back to 'correct' later on.
You've obviously got enough time behind a wrench that the hoses are in the right place. But if a PCV valve could be bad in a way that causes this (for example -- and I don't know if it could) who actually tests them before installing? I know I don't.
EriktheAwful
Donation Time
I have to agree with Ken on that. I used to have an RX-7 that had a big vacuum leak. The choke would mask it, and when it shut off the car would stall.
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Haven't give up on this yet! Just haven't had time to fix it either.
Went for a 6 mile drives last Sunday. Started fine, warmed up as usual, First stop sign it wanted to die, played with the gas pedal to keep it idling, Drove for about six miles and it ran like a top.... came to a Red light and it acted like it was going to cut off at idle, played with the gas pedal to keep it idling, Drove about four miles, turned into my friends driveway and it died dead, nothing!, Would not start, did not act like it was getting spark....
Sat for about ten minutes and it started as normal, still would not idle, played with the gas pedal to keep it idling, tuned around and headed back home, drove about 3/4 mile and it died again, dead, nothing!.
Called the wife to bring-a-trailer. When she arrived I tried again, it stared and loaded fine. Arrived home on the trailer. Unloaded and it started fine. Drove it inside the garage, parked it and it would still not idle on it's own.
That is where it is sitt'n since last Sunday. I have started it on different times and different days, it starts fine, just will not idle on it's own. Very curious as to it dying on me?
I have set the idle at about 900 RPM to keep it idling, which it will for a short time, then it starts to die, playing with the gas pedal keeps it idling....
I wish to thank all of you for comments, recommendations and ideas provided. Maybe I can get it cured.... Sure would like to be able to feel comfortable when heading out.
Went for a 6 mile drives last Sunday. Started fine, warmed up as usual, First stop sign it wanted to die, played with the gas pedal to keep it idling, Drove for about six miles and it ran like a top.... came to a Red light and it acted like it was going to cut off at idle, played with the gas pedal to keep it idling, Drove about four miles, turned into my friends driveway and it died dead, nothing!, Would not start, did not act like it was getting spark....
Sat for about ten minutes and it started as normal, still would not idle, played with the gas pedal to keep it idling, tuned around and headed back home, drove about 3/4 mile and it died again, dead, nothing!.
Called the wife to bring-a-trailer. When she arrived I tried again, it stared and loaded fine. Arrived home on the trailer. Unloaded and it started fine. Drove it inside the garage, parked it and it would still not idle on it's own.
That is where it is sitt'n since last Sunday. I have started it on different times and different days, it starts fine, just will not idle on it's own. Very curious as to it dying on me?
I have set the idle at about 900 RPM to keep it idling, which it will for a short time, then it starts to die, playing with the gas pedal keeps it idling....
I wish to thank all of you for comments, recommendations and ideas provided. Maybe I can get it cured.... Sure would like to be able to feel comfortable when heading out.
MikeH
Diamond Level Sponsor
When it dies, can you look in the fuel bowl and see if it is empty?
What is the coolant temp when it starts to falter at idle?
Have you checked the timing at idle?
Other than running fine except at idle, it sure sounds like a coil issue.
My 65 Mustang started having issues under acceleration when heated up. Then it started to stall at idle. But would restart after sitting a few minutes and run fine again, until hot. Then is stalled and refused to restart. Had it towed home and the next morning it started right up. Replaced the coil and everything was good.
(ignore this next part. I forgot you tried another carb.)
Or check the float height. If it is not correct, you could be flooding out. I remember from the pics that your plugs looked wet.
It is just possible the float could be cracked and filling up with fuel, causing it to flood out.
This happened on the Mustang. The solder joint on the float cracked and it would sink.
Maybe you can contact Holley on it and see what they suggest.
Last edited:
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Mike, I wrote but didn't post a similar carb condemnation a while back -- and held back for the same reason you did above. But if there was a problem in the production line where many carbs had leaky float joints, Dan may have to check the actual float to see if it leaks. Easy enough to do, once you get to it...
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Here's a return to my previous POST
Ken, I actually had three "new" 390 Holley 4 bbl's on the car as a test, in hopes that I could find the idle problem....that should rule out the "float question".
Since my last POST, I removed the "new" Mallory and installed all new stuff: A distributor, brain box, new wiring harness, coil, etc.
It fires and runs as before! Still will not idle below 1100 RPM. There is no vacuum below the 900 RPM range.
Drove it for a few miles yesterday. Ran great! Still no idle! It did not stall or die during that short drive of a few miles.
Planned to go for a bit further drive again today. But guess what? Heavy rain and thunderstorms today and tomorrow.
Still haven't install a fuel pressure gauge. Even I do not believe that is a problem, it will be accomplished before the FURMAN EVENT next Saturday.
Thanks to all that have contributed to the problem or problems with my '67 Commodore Blue V6.
DanR
P.S. I am running the recommended Jose Cam from DeltaCams. Has anyone else had similar problems with their jose cam and fixed it? Jose hopefully might have already provided the answer to someone else?
Ken, I actually had three "new" 390 Holley 4 bbl's on the car as a test, in hopes that I could find the idle problem....that should rule out the "float question".
Since my last POST, I removed the "new" Mallory and installed all new stuff: A distributor, brain box, new wiring harness, coil, etc.
It fires and runs as before! Still will not idle below 1100 RPM. There is no vacuum below the 900 RPM range.
Drove it for a few miles yesterday. Ran great! Still no idle! It did not stall or die during that short drive of a few miles.
Planned to go for a bit further drive again today. But guess what? Heavy rain and thunderstorms today and tomorrow.
Still haven't install a fuel pressure gauge. Even I do not believe that is a problem, it will be accomplished before the FURMAN EVENT next Saturday.
Thanks to all that have contributed to the problem or problems with my '67 Commodore Blue V6.
DanR
P.S. I am running the recommended Jose Cam from DeltaCams. Has anyone else had similar problems with their jose cam and fixed it? Jose hopefully might have already provided the answer to someone else?
Dan, just wondering, could the vacuum problem be due to bad cam timing? Maybe a compression check, looking for consistent, but aberrant, readings? Could be off a tooth or maybe even ground incorrectly.
I dunno. Can't think of many things that would cause low idle vacuum. That's the best I can come up with. For sure that if you don't have vacuum, you can't suck air and fuel into the engine.
Bill
I dunno. Can't think of many things that would cause low idle vacuum. That's the best I can come up with. For sure that if you don't have vacuum, you can't suck air and fuel into the engine.
Bill
It is also possible a timing gear (or sprocket) keyway is not properly indexed. That happened to my grandfather's Homelite chainsaw. Hard to start, no real power. Years later, an uncle happened to notice the flywheel keyway in that saw was indexed differently than in the flywheel from a junked saw. Installed the junker flywheel and the old Homelite became the terror of the woodlot.
It can happen. Usually when you least expect it.
Bill
It can happen. Usually when you least expect it.
Bill
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Bill, bad cam timing? Maybe a compression check, looking for consistent, but aberrant, readings? Could be off a tooth or maybe even ground incorrectly.
I've checked and rechecked the possible vacuum leaks! Sprayed started fluid & car cleaner around the base of the carb and along the intake (two piece Ofy) with no noticeable impact to the idle or running.
Compression checked several times OK.
Only thing that is a real bother to me is the lack of vacuum. I had the timing cover off, the timing aligned OK. What really bothers me most is the possibility of the cam not being ground correctly.
That is the main reason in my last POST, I attempted to reach out to the jose guys with the jose cam from Delta.... Has anyone had similar problems.
I do have several more engines being built and one will get another cam (CompCam) that came with the Sam's Green1. Then I'll see what that does.
Hoping to get through the Summer and into the Fall before pulling this engine for a tear down and evaluation.
As for the timing gear (or sprocket) key-way not properly indexed is interesting! I do not have an answer for that ! BUT on that subject I have a crate engine 2.8 V6 Cologne that I was fixing to install and attempted to set the timing, when nothing internally would rotate when I attempted to turn the engine by use of the front pulley (harmonic balancer) I became puzzled. Tried again and again without success. Finally, pulled the crank pulley and balancer off to find that it did not have a "Key". Being very leery, I removed the timing cover to discover even more disappointment in the crate engine...It was missing the bottom pan seal under the crank.
A special note to all you 2.8 V6 guys, make sure before you button up the timing cover the two little rubber water seals are in place. This engine had them but they look very small as if they will not seat properly.
Now I'm wondering just how far I must go to be assured all is well?
Life goes on,
DanR
I've checked and rechecked the possible vacuum leaks! Sprayed started fluid & car cleaner around the base of the carb and along the intake (two piece Ofy) with no noticeable impact to the idle or running.
Compression checked several times OK.
Only thing that is a real bother to me is the lack of vacuum. I had the timing cover off, the timing aligned OK. What really bothers me most is the possibility of the cam not being ground correctly.
That is the main reason in my last POST, I attempted to reach out to the jose guys with the jose cam from Delta.... Has anyone had similar problems.
I do have several more engines being built and one will get another cam (CompCam) that came with the Sam's Green1. Then I'll see what that does.
Hoping to get through the Summer and into the Fall before pulling this engine for a tear down and evaluation.
As for the timing gear (or sprocket) key-way not properly indexed is interesting! I do not have an answer for that ! BUT on that subject I have a crate engine 2.8 V6 Cologne that I was fixing to install and attempted to set the timing, when nothing internally would rotate when I attempted to turn the engine by use of the front pulley (harmonic balancer) I became puzzled. Tried again and again without success. Finally, pulled the crank pulley and balancer off to find that it did not have a "Key". Being very leery, I removed the timing cover to discover even more disappointment in the crate engine...It was missing the bottom pan seal under the crank.
A special note to all you 2.8 V6 guys, make sure before you button up the timing cover the two little rubber water seals are in place. This engine had them but they look very small as if they will not seat properly.
Now I'm wondering just how far I must go to be assured all is well?
Life goes on,
DanR
260Alpine
Silver Level Sponsor
Dan, if you are measuring vacuum on ported(above throttle blades) it will be zero at idle. Manifold vacuum will be high at idle. PCV valve should be to manifold vacuum. I have had a cam fail when they first took the zinc out of oil years ago. My experience was lifter ticking, metal particles in oil and loss of power. Idle was still smooth. When I pulled the cam, all lobes were rounded and lifter faces worn. The Jose cam is ground by Delta who have a good reputation. A proper breakin is still important. I like to coat the lobes with breakin lube and run 2000 RPM for 20 minutes.