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Alpine timing cover seal solution

G

gtoner

Donation Time
There is a real solution to the timing cover seal problem which can be found on this site:

http://joesrestorationrescue.com/

I am personally involved in the development of this product and offer it as a matter of common interest to the Alpine community. I am of course biased by my involvement so no further opinions are offered. I will answer any questions either here on this thread or through the website, as long as I am not violating any forum rules.

Regards,

Gene
 
Ron67Alpine

Ron67Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Hi Gene,
Your products look good. I have a made Alpine/SBC timing cover and my harmonic balancer only has the one TDC mark, which make timing a guessing game. What would I need to make my TC work correctly.
thanks
Ron
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
Gene, I gotta tell you, that's one pretty timing cover - LOVE the etched-in Alpine logo - nice touch! I understand the costs in making small production parts like that - they are prohibitive. Given all that, I can buy a really nice set of precision machined pistons for what the one timing cover costs, so I'm afraid it's just waaayyy out of my budget. But I applaud you for making one of the prettiest restoration parts in Alpine land.
 
G

gtoner

Donation Time
puff4

Kevin,

We have history. You were kind enough to allow me to come over and get a look at your Alpine's top. I will call you tonight.

Regards,

Gene
 
Ron67Alpine

Ron67Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
tigretr

tigretr

Donation Time
Gene,
Good looking timing cover. I do notice a few minor things you could do which would be substantial functional upgrades. Putting a lip seal in was a major improvement. However, like the oil pan, the thin metal lip which the bolts tighten down on is not nearly thick enough and gives very uneven clamping force on the gasket. From the pictures on your web site it looks like the flange thickness didn't grow substantially. There is no reason not to leave this lip as thick as possible. Could be .500 or greater. This would save you time on the CNC and ensure that the flange doesn't bend (reducing the possibility of a leak). Also, with some additional thickness in the flange area, why not incorporate an O-ring. The only thing that sucks more than scraping silicone and gasket off covers is probably the reason one had to take the cover off to begin with.

Just food for thought. Since you took the time to reproduce the cover, with a few easy tweaks, it may be even more marketable.

Brian
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
Brian, the ever-generous Gene and I did a little business last night and I now am the proud owner of one of these *beautiful* covers. I really gotta tell you, this sucker is first class nice.

As to your points, you're absolutely right, the edge needed to be thicker than the original covers. Despite how the photos look, they did design this unit that way, with a much thicker flange than the old ones. I just measured mine and the gasket flange is about 0.130 thick, which is about 2-3 times thicker than the original flange. I have no worries about this distorting at the bolt holes - it's stiff as all heck. Plus, since it doesn't have a 'lip' at the edge, you can use larger diameter (penny) washers on the bolts to distribute the load, which I will do. If they made it as thick as 0.50 I think that might look pretty chunky... as it is they've preserved the basic look, but with the enhanced logo and a much stronger product. I think it's a good compromise.

As to the O-ring, yeah, that would probably be a good addition, though where would you source a ring that big? I suppose you could make a ring out of ring-stock, but that stuff itself is kinda hard to find. Instead you might try the 'old-time mechanic' trick I often use, which is to adhere the gasket to one side (usually the removable part, like the cover) and use heavy axle grease on the other surface. It actually does work, believe it or not. Then, since this is anodized, you can safely use proper spray-on gasket remover to get the old one off if you need to. You may still have to do a little scraping off the one side, of course, but being on the removable part at least you're not leaning into an engine bay doing it.
 
G

gtoner

Donation Time
Good Suggestions

I do like the idea of using an "O" ring as the gasket and I will look into what's involved in applying that feature to the cover. I doubt anything beyond 3/16 flange thickness would accomplish much unless required by the O-ring. Remember that increasing the thickness of the flange makes getting to the screw obscured by the water pump more difficult. Not an issue in a complete tear down, but a consideration in a seal replacement operation.

Gene
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
If you carve a groove for the O-ring, this would weaken the flange to some extent, won't it?
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Gtoner,

I am curious, why did you omit the stud hole in the center of the cover.

Rootes put it there to stiffen the assembly and prevent resonant vibration.
 
G

gtoner

Donation Time
rootes racer

The area where we put the logo is over a quarter of an inch thick. This is much stiffer than the original sheet metal as is the material in the area of the SBC seal itself. The elastomeric seal is also less dependent on precision clearances than the original design. Being stiffer to begin with and less dependent on precision alignment, we eliminated the standoff and also a potential leak site.

Gene
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
OK, folks, so I took some additional photos of this cover so you all can get a better look at some of the details. It may help clarify things a bit.

Here's the 'money shot' of the logo... it's seriously slick:

SunbeamCover002.jpg


To answer the question about how thick the flange is, here's a closeup with my thumbnail as a size reference. It's pretty dang thick without being 'chunky':

SunbeamCover003.jpg


A closeup of the seal area showing construction and strength:

SunbeamCover001.jpg


(more in my next post)
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
More pics...

Here's the inside... it's almost a shame that this is hidden, as it's very pretty!

SunbeamCover004.jpg


A shot of the timing mark... I haven't checked it yet against the stock cover, but I'm assuming it's in the right place... seems like it is. Also note the thickness of the logo area, and note that this is not relieved inside the cover, so it is really quite thick in this area:

SunbeamCover005.jpg


Final shot, of the seal area, showing the depth/protrusion and shape:

SunbeamCover006.jpg
 
Ken Ellis

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Looks nice. Kudos to all.
Re: o-rings... if the clearances allow, maybe a silicon sheet gasket would work. The temps involved should be fine, and you could make a trial gasket out of a silicon baking sheet, available at Target.
 
G

gtoner

Donation Time
Inside the cover

Many thanks to Kevin for his participation in the thread! I'd just like to point out that the cover I supplied to Kevin was an early development item where we had to do some internal modifications to clear the timing chain down in the seal area. All anodized production items are fully anodized on the internal surfaces. If you check the web site, you will see the non anodized, non logo-ed (doubt that's a word) covers. All covers start life like those. We then take the undecorated covers, have them anodized, and finish engrave the logo through the anodize. so no additional machining inside. This also means that the color of the anodize is up for discussion on an individual basis, it would just be an additional delivery delay as we would not stock any non-black colors.
 
G

gtoner

Donation Time
New Price!!!

All,

The boss decided to take a real hard look at the processes involved in the manufacturing of these covers and to get some out into actual users hands, so I get to announce a price reduction!!!

Check out the web site for more details but the undecorated cover got cut to $137. I think the amount of traffic on the web site helped with this decision. My nagging didn't hurt either. Hopefully there is enough interest to actually pay for the development of these products. We would like to do more, so suggestions are welcome for other applications.

Regards,

Gene
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
One note, Gene. In your video you 'strongly recommend' changing out the tensioner pad.

I'm not so sure about that. The original pads are very sturdy and will last a LONG time - indeed, I'm reusing mine in this rebuild, as it looks fine.

Further, and more importantly, I don't know of a single reliable replacement pad being offered at this time, by ANY vendor - all the ones I've heard of disintegrate fairly rapidly, and with horrifying results.

If someone has information to the contrary, please pipe up, as I'd love to know of a solid, long lasting rubber replacement tensioner pad.
 
G

gtoner

Donation Time
Tensioner pad

Kevin,

Interesting. The one I took out of the SV I did all the testing on was in a state that I would not reuse it. It had lost its integrity to such an extent the the ends had all but dissolved and its firmness (resiliency?) had been greatly compromised.

I have no way of knowing if this part was original or not, but I do know that I could not put it back in. I got a replacement item from Sunbeam Specialties which certainly had much greater resiliency then the part I removed. We replaced the tensioner, the leaf spring and the chain. We ran the system for about 10 hours and then tore down the cover to look for any interferences or surprises. We did find that the chain had worn the rubber to where the rollers had made contact, but looked to be proceeding no further. I have a plan to tear down the system again after maybe 5k miles to see how everything is going, so I will report my findings.

Do you know of any additional wisdom on this subject on the forum or the net?

Regards,

Gene
 
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