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62 Alpine Identification/SAS/VIN/SAL
- Thread starter lhb009
- Start date
I had purchased a '67 SV Craigslist special, and when it showed up - it was missing the VIN plate under the bonnet, having been refurbed 2-3 times before apparently. The title had a number on it that matched the 1725 stamping, so I thought I was okay. However, NC though otherwise.
I, and 4 officers at the NC Bureau of Firearms and Theft (or something akin to that), spent hours looking for hidden a VIN, primarily on the passenger-side frame rail under the engine as they claimed that is where the "books" said that they should be on Sunbeams. We could find nothing anywhere, but it still might be hidden under the overzealous spray of undercoating.
I ended up just getting my state to issue a new VIN, and having to pay an extra $100 for a bond.
I, and 4 officers at the NC Bureau of Firearms and Theft (or something akin to that), spent hours looking for hidden a VIN, primarily on the passenger-side frame rail under the engine as they claimed that is where the "books" said that they should be on Sunbeams. We could find nothing anywhere, but it still might be hidden under the overzealous spray of undercoating.
I ended up just getting my state to issue a new VIN, and having to pay an extra $100 for a bond.
Cactusmasher
Donation Time
62 Alpine identification etc.
The NC motor vehicle inspectors were blowing smoke when they said their "book" said there were serial numbers on that Sunbeam. The books used by all auto theft inspectors, motor vehicle departments, police officers and everyone else in that group are issued by the NATB (National Auto Theft Bureau) and are not available to the general public. These books are the tools of the trade and give locations to look for all public VIN and the hidden, or secondary VIN and even describe what the numbers/letters should look like. I had access to the NATB books for 22 years and they went all the way back to when VIN or serial numbers were first issued. Not one of those manuals showed any serial or VIN for a Sunbeam other than the riveted tags on the cowl, with the exception of the early years that had numbers stamped into the firewall. There are no secondary or hidden VIN on any Sunbeam Alpine or Tiger, which makes them extremely difficult to identify if the tags are removed. In those cases, the only way we could identify a no number vehicle would be from personal points on the vehicle that the owner could specify, such as one of a kind brackets, welding or other markings that the owner installed himself and would differentiate it from any other vehicle of that same make. In Arizona, I had my own difficulties getting some of my Sunbeams titled and registered because our motor vehicle inspectors were guessing that since most cars have secondary numbers, then Sunbeams should also have them. Here, if you can prove it's your car and it has no numbers, they will issue their own ID number on a sticker tag, usually put on a door jamb. You normally would have to provide a bond to the state in the amount of whatever they feel the car is worth and they usually go with whatever the original price of the car was. It's called a bonded title here and the bond indemnifies the state in case someone shows up later with a legitimate title to the car and wants it back. It can be a real cluster trying to get an old car registered, even when you work in the field. They do not like being told they are wrong and like it much less when you prove it to them. I know that other states have different policies for this and it can be a real hassle to get an old car titled and registered, especially when it comes in from another state. I hope this information helps someone out.
The NC motor vehicle inspectors were blowing smoke when they said their "book" said there were serial numbers on that Sunbeam. The books used by all auto theft inspectors, motor vehicle departments, police officers and everyone else in that group are issued by the NATB (National Auto Theft Bureau) and are not available to the general public. These books are the tools of the trade and give locations to look for all public VIN and the hidden, or secondary VIN and even describe what the numbers/letters should look like. I had access to the NATB books for 22 years and they went all the way back to when VIN or serial numbers were first issued. Not one of those manuals showed any serial or VIN for a Sunbeam other than the riveted tags on the cowl, with the exception of the early years that had numbers stamped into the firewall. There are no secondary or hidden VIN on any Sunbeam Alpine or Tiger, which makes them extremely difficult to identify if the tags are removed. In those cases, the only way we could identify a no number vehicle would be from personal points on the vehicle that the owner could specify, such as one of a kind brackets, welding or other markings that the owner installed himself and would differentiate it from any other vehicle of that same make. In Arizona, I had my own difficulties getting some of my Sunbeams titled and registered because our motor vehicle inspectors were guessing that since most cars have secondary numbers, then Sunbeams should also have them. Here, if you can prove it's your car and it has no numbers, they will issue their own ID number on a sticker tag, usually put on a door jamb. You normally would have to provide a bond to the state in the amount of whatever they feel the car is worth and they usually go with whatever the original price of the car was. It's called a bonded title here and the bond indemnifies the state in case someone shows up later with a legitimate title to the car and wants it back. It can be a real cluster trying to get an old car registered, even when you work in the field. They do not like being told they are wrong and like it much less when you prove it to them. I know that other states have different policies for this and it can be a real hassle to get an old car titled and registered, especially when it comes in from another state. I hope this information helps someone out.
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Catusmasher you state, " There are no secondary or hidden VIN on any Sunbeam Alpine or Tiger, which makes them extremely difficult to identify if the tags are removed." lhb009 is trying to determine if his Series II (an early model Sunbeam) has any other location where the VIN may be found. I answered the question below using the Harrington Le Mans (a Series II platform configuration). However, to confirm my statement I went out and looked at my Series II and my Series I and both have the VIN number attached behind the drivers seat on the vertical aspect of the tub/floor. The reason I even know about this "hidden location" is from other Sunbeam owners on this site. So now the secret is out and the NATB can make an adjustment to their "book" of all knowledge related to VINs.
George Coleman
Donation Time
Mike the DMV tried the same thing with me on my Tiger they new nothing about the car or numbers they blow big smoke!
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
I would still like to know....
I posted this a day or so ago but did not get any response.... Am I suggesting something that is too far fetched to try?
Has ibh009 responded yet with his SAL number?
I sugestioned He go to the top of this page where you see the:
"SAOCA Info" Click on it.
Then you will see: SAOCA Registry
Next: View Registry
Next: Registry
Then select which series Vehicle you have (?):
View SII Registry Information - Here
Here is what you will see as a header:
Series II Registry
Chassis No. Suffix Engine No. Body no./SAL Colour Code Comments
I think it may be possible to determine you "VIIN" here if it was ever listed with the SAOCA. Look for the SAL numbers listed here. Or other clues such as "V6 Conversion" etc., etc.,
Let us know what you find.....
__________________
DanR
V6 JOSE Conversion of '65 SIV GT BW35 in work!
I posted this a day or so ago but did not get any response.... Am I suggesting something that is too far fetched to try?
Has ibh009 responded yet with his SAL number?
I sugestioned He go to the top of this page where you see the:
"SAOCA Info" Click on it.
Then you will see: SAOCA Registry
Next: View Registry
Next: Registry
Then select which series Vehicle you have (?):
View SII Registry Information - Here
Here is what you will see as a header:
Series II Registry
Chassis No. Suffix Engine No. Body no./SAL Colour Code Comments
I think it may be possible to determine you "VIIN" here if it was ever listed with the SAOCA. Look for the SAL numbers listed here. Or other clues such as "V6 Conversion" etc., etc.,
Let us know what you find.....
__________________
DanR
V6 JOSE Conversion of '65 SIV GT BW35 in work!
SII Serial Number SAS, SAL and RAS
I have a 62 Sunbeam Alpine built in July 1961. Serial number stamped on ledge of firewall passeger side, engine number and metal tag on drivers side all match.
Body Number tag riveted on passenger side upper deck of firewall below the hood is one digit less than the serial number (4 digits) 7112 Body Number 7113 Serial Number.
In addition I have a metal tag screwed to the vertial panel behind the drivers seat with RAS and 6 digits, none match any other numbers.
Anyone know about the RAS number?
I have a 62 Sunbeam Alpine built in July 1961. Serial number stamped on ledge of firewall passeger side, engine number and metal tag on drivers side all match.
Body Number tag riveted on passenger side upper deck of firewall below the hood is one digit less than the serial number (4 digits) 7112 Body Number 7113 Serial Number.
In addition I have a metal tag screwed to the vertial panel behind the drivers seat with RAS and 6 digits, none match any other numbers.
Anyone know about the RAS number?
Checked on Registry
Well, I went to the registry and it didn't have my SAL# so I added it to the registry. There are some with similar SAL#'s but not the same. Sorry for the slow responses, I have been out the last couple of days getting another Series 2. So now I have 2 in the yard, but the new one also is missing the vin plates, etc. I will check behind the seat, but I have completely sanded the paint off the place near the firewall and cant find a number on either. Thanks for your help.
Well, I went to the registry and it didn't have my SAL# so I added it to the registry. There are some with similar SAL#'s but not the same. Sorry for the slow responses, I have been out the last couple of days getting another Series 2. So now I have 2 in the yard, but the new one also is missing the vin plates, etc. I will check behind the seat, but I have completely sanded the paint off the place near the firewall and cant find a number on either. Thanks for your help.
Ford 2.6 V6
I do have the V-6 in the car. I will post some pictures when I can, and once I figure out how. I started with almost nothing but a shell and an the engine, no doors, bonnet, boot etc. But now it is complete as far as the major body components... I got this other series 2 and it has all of the hardware for the doors, latches, windows, etc so I will install them once I get it painted. But other details: Offenhouser intake manifold with a Holly 390 4 barrel manual choke carb, Mallory distributor. The engine and 4 speed manual transmission "supposedly" both came from a Ford Capri (likely a 72-73). I don't actually know all the details about how to identify the exact tranny, but I am learning. I still need a rear-end, but it is hooked up for now and will drive around. My next step is to take the steering box out of my "new" series 2, and put it in the V-6, I tried to use an MG rack and pinion steering, but have not been able to make it work right, it won't steer sharp enough. The next challenge right now is actually getting an exhaust system put together.
Do you "still" have the little V6 engine in the car? Is it a Ford 2.8 V6?
What kind of transmission is bolted to the engine?
Can you post us some pictures please?
That would be nice
I do have the V-6 in the car. I will post some pictures when I can, and once I figure out how. I started with almost nothing but a shell and an the engine, no doors, bonnet, boot etc. But now it is complete as far as the major body components... I got this other series 2 and it has all of the hardware for the doors, latches, windows, etc so I will install them once I get it painted. But other details: Offenhouser intake manifold with a Holly 390 4 barrel manual choke carb, Mallory distributor. The engine and 4 speed manual transmission "supposedly" both came from a Ford Capri (likely a 72-73). I don't actually know all the details about how to identify the exact tranny, but I am learning. I still need a rear-end, but it is hooked up for now and will drive around. My next step is to take the steering box out of my "new" series 2, and put it in the V-6, I tried to use an MG rack and pinion steering, but have not been able to make it work right, it won't steer sharp enough. The next challenge right now is actually getting an exhaust system put together.
Attachments
Last edited:
Registry not showing up
So I didn't find it in the registry, and added it, but it doesn't look like it shows up?? SAL # 019606
So I didn't find it in the registry, and added it, but it doesn't look like it shows up?? SAL # 019606
The chassis number was only stamped on the firewall on the early series 2 cars. The car in question has a SAL number so it is a later series and will almost certainly not have the number stamped on the firewall.
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Heres what I know about VIN number locations from my two Series IIs (one Alpine and one Harrington Le Mans), two Series IVs and one each of a Series I, III and V (Tiger).
1) I stand corrected that the mounted plate behind the drivers seat on the vertical aspect of the tub/floor appearing only on the Series I and IIs is a VIN plate. It is as Gary T points out a RAS# plate.
2) The Series I and both Series IIs have a "secondary" VIN stamped on the passenger side lip of the firewall in addition to the screwed on drivers side cowling specification plate with VIN stamp.
3) On Series III, IV, and V the VIN only appears on the passenger side cowling stamped into the riveted specification plate.
My findings align with this site's well written technical data article http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?categoryid=83.
1) I stand corrected that the mounted plate behind the drivers seat on the vertical aspect of the tub/floor appearing only on the Series I and IIs is a VIN plate. It is as Gary T points out a RAS# plate.
2) The Series I and both Series IIs have a "secondary" VIN stamped on the passenger side lip of the firewall in addition to the screwed on drivers side cowling specification plate with VIN stamp.
3) On Series III, IV, and V the VIN only appears on the passenger side cowling stamped into the riveted specification plate.
My findings align with this site's well written technical data article http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?categoryid=83.
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Gary T I found what RAS stands for Rootes Armstrong Siddeley the 6 digits are the production line numbers (no connection to the VIN). Of note, Armstrong Sideley was an enginering company mainly focused on luxury cars and engine development since 1919. Other than they were a large engineering group with considerable influence throughout England I'm not certain why the letters A and S is present on a Rootes product.
RootesRooter
Donation Time
Didn't Armstrong Siddeley manufacture Alpines for Rootes thru mid-Series II? I seem to recall reading that there might be a gap in the VIN's during the production switch back to the Rootes factory.
62 Identification
I assume I am identifying this right as a '62 full height window posts, finned, bonnet opens all the way with the prop rod on the right side. And I havent been able to find any plates behind the seat. Any other thoughts on identification?
I assume I am identifying this right as a '62 full height window posts, finned, bonnet opens all the way with the prop rod on the right side. And I havent been able to find any plates behind the seat. Any other thoughts on identification?
Attachments
SAL tag
Is the SAL tag supposed to be oval shaped, because mine is more rectangular, and seems to be in a slightly different location. If there were a number, am I looking in the right place(see photo attached)?
Is the SAL tag supposed to be oval shaped, because mine is more rectangular, and seems to be in a slightly different location. If there were a number, am I looking in the right place(see photo attached)?
Attachments
The SAL tag is correct for a later series 2. The earlier series 1 and 2 cars have the oval tag. With this being a late series 2 the chassis number will not be stamped on the firewall.