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V6 Motor and Trans help

srbaker

Donation Time
I have a lead on a motor and tranny with only 67000km on it. It is a 1979 Mercury Capri. The car is still on the road and I will be able to drive it before committing. The question is regarding the transmission, it is a German Merkur 5 speed sent from Germany. Will it fit right in the Alpine negating the need for the T5? The price sounds reasonable and he is doing a V8 swap which is just about ready to go in. What should I ask for in addition to the motor and transmission out of the car? He is not pulling the motor until he has a buyer.
Is the '79 a good choice? I really like the low mileage, doesn't burn oil, etc.
Thanks
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Just out of curiosity, is this 79 capri a "fox mustang" capri or the earlier german capri?

The german capri was actually last imported in 1977/8 but who knows about how models work in Canada.

The "fox" capri actually never came with the german 5 speed. Manual trans equipped came with an SROD 4 speed or later the T5. If the car has the Type 9 german 5 speed, it would have been imported from England which was putting them in the German capris well into the 80s.

Does it fit? Yes as it is smaller than a T5 and requires fewer if any tunnel mods.

Some will tell you its a weak but that would be in comparison to the T5.

English fords used that transmission for cars with well over 200 HP and unless the transmission is abused, is perfectly suitable for a 2.8 V6.

In North America, the Merkur XR4Ti (with 200ish HP turbo 2.3) used that type transmission until 1987 when they went to the T5. Most accounts say that the transmission was fine for the application but ford wanted to consolidate on the T5 for all RWD 5 speed apps. Nowadays folks prefer to change out the type 9/N transmissions for these apps because they are making more HP than it was originally designed to handle. Plus parts for these are hens teeth in N/A.
 

srbaker

Donation Time
T9 Transmission

The person selling the unit mentioned that the transmission had been changed to a 5 speed from the 4 speed. Individual had or has a relative overseas, so on and so on.

If the price/condition is right I may not need to rebuild either part. I will of course have them checked and hopefully get some extra HP from a few mods.

Haven't seen the car yet so no more info at this point





Just out of curiosity, is this 79 capri a "fox mustang" capri or the earlier german capri?

The german capri was actually last imported in 1977/8 but who knows about how models work in Canada.

The "fox" capri actually never came with the german 5 speed. Manual trans equipped came with an SROD 4 speed or later the T5. If the car has the Type 9 german 5 speed, it would have been imported from England which was putting them in the German capris well into the 80s.

Does it fit? Yes as it is smaller than a T5 and requires fewer if any tunnel mods.

Some will tell you its a weak but that would be in comparison to the T5.

English fords used that transmission for cars with well over 200 HP and unless the transmission is abused, is perfectly suitable for a 2.8 V6.

In North America, the Merkur XR4Ti (with 200ish HP turbo 2.3) used that type transmission until 1987 when they went to the T5. Most accounts say that the transmission was fine for the application but ford wanted to consolidate on the T5 for all RWD 5 speed apps. Nowadays folks prefer to change out the type 9/N transmissions for these apps because they are making more HP than it was originally designed to handle. Plus parts for these are hens teeth in N/A.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
I've had two of the '79 Mercury Capri's of which I took the 2.8 V6 engine for my conversions. Both were 4 speed trans and I was advised they were not good for the jose conversions so I disposed of them and went to the T5 1352.238 which I was also advised to obtain. Later I was told that a mistake was made that it was not the best for his conversion.

Both cars were of the Fox Body construction/design. Neither of the bell housings would work with the jose kit because they were not designed with the Release (external) arm as on the Mutt II's. Both were of aluminum but the bolt pattern for the transmission was different also from the Mutt II's and would not take the late model Mustang T5's.

One of the Capri's had leaf springs for the rear axle and one had coil springs (Rather Odd).....

DanR
 

gordonra

Donation Time
All,

Regarding the V6 preferred transmission and the confusion that some have experienced:

There is no single correct answer for which transmission because it is really a personal preference relating to your intended use of the Alpine after the conversion. The combination of tire size, rear end ratio, and transmission version all play a part in your choice and the differences can be very small. If you are looking for the fastest V6 conversion on the drag strip, then you'd have to tune the combination for best performance. If you are looking for a daily driver that will leave the pack on surface streets, then most any combinations will do.

Since there are many versions of the Ford T5, it's difficult to express all of the options pro & cons. I've attempted to explain them here: http://v6alpine.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

The owner needs to determine what his end goal is. One would expect that if the owner was trying to make a racing machine, he would have some knowledge of what he is doing and stop trying to blame others for his inability to make appropriate decisions.

I hope this clears some of the confusion,

Regards, and peaceful Memorial Day to all,

Rich
 

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
Great job on that V6 Blog, Rich.

I don't know if it's possible on these forums but, most other forums I visit have the first few posts as permanent 'stickies' that contain important and helpful information pertanent to the subject of that particular forum that answers many of the most common questions for a given subject. Usually it's information most commonly needed among that forums typical users that is compiled in a complete and easy to follow format. If I go to a certain forum looking for answers I'll first look for a stickie pertaining to the subject I'm researching, if no stickie then I'll do a Search, if nothing in a search then I'll post a question. But it's the stickie that I look for first and is really great to have available.

I think the V6 Blog would make an excellent stickie for the Modified Alpine Forum.
 

srbaker

Donation Time
No sure where you get "blaming" from my post?

Good Evening

I am not sure where you get " he would have some knowledge of what he is doing and stop trying to blame others for his inability to make appropriate decisions"

People join these forums looking for info, to offer info, a little assistance and opinions on what worked for others. I know what I want from the car and intend for it to be powerful enough to drive on today's roads including the highway. You need to dial back the "attitude" and maybe offer some friendly advice for the novices here instead of getting all superior.

Ultimately I will decide what I put in the car and live with that decision good or bad. I have spent the last three weeks reading everything I can get my hands on regarding the V6 swaps out there since buying the Alpine. If I am not comfortable with the motor/tranny choice being offered to me then I will source exactly what V6Jose has on his BlogSpot to the letter. The last build I did was 20 years ago that being a '51 Merc 1/2 ton. Now semi retired I have some time to get back into it so what I cannot do myself I will contract out.

Geez some people.............







All,

Regarding the V6 preferred transmission and the confusion that some have experienced:

There is no single correct answer for which transmission because it is really a personal preference relating to your intended use of the Alpine after the conversion. The combination of tire size, rear end ratio, and transmission version all play a part in your choice and the differences can be very small. If you are looking for the fastest V6 conversion on the drag strip, then you'd have to tune the combination for best performance. If you are looking for a daily driver that will leave the pack on surface streets, then most any combinations will do.

Since there are many versions of the Ford T5, it's difficult to express all of the options pro & cons. I've attempted to explain them here: http://v6alpine.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

The owner needs to determine what his end goal is. One would expect that if the owner was trying to make a racing machine, he would have some knowledge of what he is doing and stop trying to blame others for his inability to make appropriate decisions.

I hope this clears some of the confusion,

Regards, and peaceful Memorial Day to all,

Rich
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
srbaker, I'm pretty sure you are not the object of the objectionable post. A little explanation is in order.

Jose is a lot like an old woman, in that he has a need for a support group. One cardinal rule to be in the group is that you agree to everything Jose says and attack anyone that does not. After all, he is the expert in everything that pertains to V6"s, even things he knows nothing about. Generally speaking, it is a world of "friends" and "enemies". Rich, who is obviously a "friend" was putting Dan, who is an "enemy" in his place, prompted by Dan's remarks about buying wrong transmissions. It's an old, ongoing thing. Nothing was directed at you.

I am an "enemy" as you may well have guessed.

Bill
 

Series6

Past President
Diamond Level Sponsor
As I have friends on both sides of this issue I'd appreciate toning the whole conversation down a touch please.

All I can add is my engine came from a Capri. It was in my car along with the Capri transmission. It was a direct drive and the rear axle had a 3.31 ratio. I put a T5 from a Mustang GT which had a .68 final. Although it operated well it was a bad match. Found a T5 from a turbo T-Bird which had a .80 final that raised my rpm by 400 revs. Perfect. Pulls like a bear. I used a spread sheet to calculate what I needed.
 

srbaker

Donation Time
You get it everywhere unfortunately

Thank you for the explanation but personal issues among members is not going to help your association attract and retain new members.

I sought out such a site after purchasing my Alpine in order to better educate myself with respect to the vehicle. Who better to learn from than fellow owners?

In three short weeks I have received a wealth of information from individuals, purchased parts from members and received greetings from many. I felt the value of the information and advice received warranted a donation to the site.
I recently received my official welcome, stickers, etc in the mail which was unexpected. All of the preceding makes the ownership of the Alpine just a little sweeter. In fact I purchased a second car today, a '59 to assist me in my restoration/modification of the '60.

Unfortunately the post that has prompted this discussion is common in many forums. You will always find those who feel that their information/advice is more valuable or correct than that of others, human nature I suppose. In fact everyone's opinion or information coming forward is as valuable as the next one as it represents real world experience. How can we improve on an any given application if we do not learn from the success or failure of others. There will always be those who will dare to try, those who will improve the successes and those who will emulate what works.

I would encourage the moderator to do what they can to curtail such behavior.

Thank you




srbaker, I'm pretty sure you are not the object of the objectionable post. A little explanation is in order.

Jose is a lot like an old woman, in that he has a need for a support group. One cardinal rule to be in the group is that you agree to everything Jose says and attack anyone that does not. After all, he is the expert in everything that pertains to V6"s, even things he knows nothing about. Generally speaking, it is a world of "friends" and "enemies". Rich, who is obviously a "friend" was putting Dan, who is an "enemy" in his place, prompted by Dan's remarks about buying wrong transmissions. It's an old, ongoing thing. Nothing was directed at you.

I am an "enemy" as you may well have guessed.

Bill
 

srbaker

Donation Time
Site to read ID # on Mustang

So the "79 Capri" the V6 was in was actually a Mustang Notchback (Fox Body) but it did have the 5 speed change as described. I was wondering if anyone could refer me to a site that would help me decipher the ID Tag # on the car,curious.
The mileage was as described and I drove it, ran good, no clutch slippage, no smoke, etc. Motor looked good. I am getting everything out of the car as he is doing a 302 swap. I get motor, transmission, driveshaft, rear end, extra manifold, carb and various parts. Looks like I am well on my way to getting everything I need. In a few short weeks I have bought the '60, picked up a few parts, bought a '59 parts car with hardtop, bought/picked up all four new floor pans and obtained a V6/5 Speed drivetrain!
 

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DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Steve, I thing I sent you a couple documents that had T5 data and applications... Check it, if you did not get it let me know.

Can you determine the Tranny ID numbers on the one in the car?
 

srbaker

Donation Time
I did Thanks

Hi Dan
Yes I did,Thanks very much
I should have everything within two weeks, until then I won't have anymore info. My round trip drive today to pick up the floor pans from Dave and then check out the motor and return home was 831.5KM starting at 5AM. I think it was around 5PM when I pulled into my driveway. Needless to say it was a long day but I also scoped out a few junk yards along the way in the middle of nowhere. One place thinks they may have some V6's and are going to call me next week. If they do I am going to buy them up!

Steve, I thing I sent you a couple documents that had T5 data and applications... Check it, if you did not get it let me know.

Can you determine the Tranny ID numbers on the one in the car?
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Steve, There is a little tag for ID purposes on the T5 towards the rear of the transmission normally very near the speedometer.

I'll try to send a PIC that depicts what it looks like.

DanR

P.S. Must have been a tiring trip! But, finding some good potential junkers makes it worth while:D
 

srbaker

Donation Time
T5 versus T9 Measurements

Just wanted to check the measurements I am comparing, make sure I am using the right T5 comparison as per V6 Kit Mount

T5
A=19.5
B=7.2
C=14.5
D=24.7

On my T9 (839T-7006) already mated to 2.8L V6 that I brought home last night the measurements are

A=22
C=13 3/8

I am not sure if I will fabricate my own mounts or go the kit route. In order to get the motor mounts right ideally you want to mount the transmission in place which helps with the mount location as stated by others. As I am using the T9 I am short a little more than an inch which would require a modification. The German Merkur T9 works great (I drove the 79 Mustang prior to pulling the drivetrain) and it has a new clutch/pressure plate.
 

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DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Steve, in the T5 data the break down the measurements you posted looks like about an inch difference. I might be able to furnish some tranny bracket measurements to help you.

I am not familiar with the T9.

If perchance you do decide not to purchasing a "kit", I will sell individual components that I have developed. As example if you want only the engine mounts, I can provide them and they will be an excellent guide for sitting the engine in the car. Mine are designed so that you need not have the "other" components attached such as the transmission and tranny mount bracket in place.

I'll send some PIC's of the engine mount brackets.

DanR

P.S. The difference in "A" is not great concern. My tranny bracket might work with the T9 difference in "C". I'll play with it a bit tomorrow.....
 
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MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
So the "79 Capri" the V6 was in was actually a Mustang Notchback (Fox Body) but it did have the 5 speed change as described. I was wondering if anyone could refer me to a site that would help me decipher the ID Tag # on the car,curious.
The mileage was as described and I drove it, ran good, no clutch slippage, no smoke, etc. Motor looked good. I am getting everything out of the car as he is doing a 302 swap. I get motor, transmission, driveshaft, rear end, extra manifold, carb and various parts. Looks like I am well on my way to getting everything I need. In a few short weeks I have bought the '60, picked up a few parts, bought a '59 parts car with hardtop, bought/picked up all four new floor pans and obtained a V6/5 Speed drivetrain!

The rear end would be an 8.8" rear which is a bit heavy for the conversion, although it has been done. Nick/Series 6 (as I recall) has had an 8.8 installed, but it is a coil spring set up
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
Just wanted to check the measurements I am comparing, make sure I am using the right T5 comparison as per V6 Kit Mount

T5
A=19.5
B=7.2
C=14.5
D=24.7

On my T9 (839T-7006) already mated to 2.8L V6 that I brought home last night the measurements are

A=22
C=13 3/8

I am not sure if I will fabricate my own mounts or go the kit route. In order to get the motor mounts right ideally you want to mount the transmission in place which helps with the mount location as stated by others. As I am using the T9 I am short a little more than an inch which would require a modification. The German Merkur T9 works great (I drove the 79 Mustang prior to pulling the drivetrain) and it has a new clutch/pressure plate.

You might want to include the length of the bell housing in the comparison.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Mike H, You make an interesting point about the bell housing...

Two of the '79 Mercury Capri's (Fox Bodies) I bought had the 2.8 V6 with aluminum bell housings. Niether of which would take the later model T5's.

And one had leaf springs and one had coils for the rear end assembly.

In regards to your comments about comparing the bell housings mine had the exact same length and would fit my other 2.8 V6 engines. the only differences was they did not have the Crank arm the Mutt II's have nor the same bolt pattern.

DanR
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
Mike H, You make an interesting point about the bell housing...

Two of the '79 Mercury Capri's (Fox Bodies) I bought had the 2.8 V6 with aluminum bell housings. Niether of which would take the later model T5's.

And one had leaf springs and one had coils for the rear end assembly.

In regards to your comments about comparing the bell housings mine had the exact same length and would fit my other 2.8 V6 engines. the only differences was they did not have the Crank arm the Mutt II's have nor the same bolt pattern.

DanR

Are you sure they were both '79s? I don't know of any Fox platform that had leaf springs.
 
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