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How far is too far?

F

fowfam

For the last several years I have been trying to piece all the items necessary for the v6 conversion, when I can afford it. A piece here one month or another a couple of months later. I purchased a copy of the pruett book a couple of months ago and I was considering making all the modifications that are permissible. I can get forged pistons for a little over $500. How significant will the hp gain be over cast? For that price is it really worth it? I also plan to use the 2.9 crankshaft mod. Port and Polish the heads, larger valves, drill the heads for the cooling passages, and I was considering having the aluminum rocker spacer kit made. Was also considering the lifter mod. Deburring, balancing, and polishing of everything applicable. Maybe even having the crank heat treated. I'm sure there was a trick or mod I forgot but I'm sure you get the idea.

Now with that being said I will probablly take the "pine" once or twice to quarter mile track to get a time and maybe a couple of road courses. Other than that , thats it. I'll just drive it till gasoline becomes obsolete or they take my drivers license away. So advice and insight please...........How far is too far? Thanks Josh.:confused:
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Forged pistons wont make more HP than stock all things the same.

Forged pistons will accept a greater amount of abuse since the material is stronger than that of cast pistons.

Where forged are especially desirable is when you are upping the compression ratio a lot (which usually means custom pistons in the ford V6 case), or when you are turboing or blowing the motor.

IMO if you are getting off the shelf forged pistons, I'd make sure they are the pop up type so you get a compression ratio boost, otherwise the stock pistons are fine for a stock CR motor.
 

bluoval

Donation Time
how far is to far

have been doing the same bu colecting the parts ect and am now starting the build . by milling the heads and or decking the block you can up the compression ratio having the same effect as custom pistons yes forged pistons are great and usualy will stand more abuse but they arn't realy a big bang for the bucks spent... if you plan on boreing the block and replacing the pistons any way then go for it ...but keep in mind that you dont want to raise the compression ratio too much for a street car . (we dont have high octane leaded gas any more..) keep us posted as to your build.. what works for you and what doesn't ... thanks earl (blu oval)
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Josh,

This is the very reason I don't recommend buying the Pruett book. The angine that Sven Pruett in describing in his book, is a full on race engine. These engines aren't built for longivity, but rather to gain every ounce of horse power possible from it. They are expected to last a given distance, then rebuilt for the next race. If you build this kind of engine for the street, you will find that it will last about as long as a hand grenade. The lifter modification will release about two hp., as will each oi the radical modifications he suggests. These engines are built to make as much power as they can, without regard for how long they will last.

I would use forged pistons if you plan on using a power adder, but I would do my math, to know exactly just how big a pop up it should have to get no more than 9,5 to 1 compression. I didn't do that, and was sold a set of pop ups with 11.5 to 1 compression, and the engine never ran right. I didn't even get what I could with an 8.5 to 1 engine. The cam was too big and the compression was too high. As was stated in a previous post; our gas won't support that kind of compression.

If you want it to be really fast, put flat top forged pistons in it, and don't mill the heads, then use Nitrous Oxide injection. You will make close to 300 hp., depending on how big a set up you run. It will be a lot cheaper, and if you build the bottom end correctly, it will last a very long time. I have to add, that the system needs to be set up properly, or it will break the engine.

In the end, I recommend building an engine that makes about 25 hp less, but will outlast the other combo by years. Another thing about these race engines is, they aren't very streetable either. 25 hp can be felt, but it isn't worth the price of admission, believe me.

Jose :(
 
F

fowfam

Thank you Gents for your comments, I apreciate all the insight given. Unfortunately this just opens up more questions. Of all the mods out there which ones does everyone recommend? Which mods will decrease the longivity of the engine? Which mods are more cost effective in comparsion to power given? Being a neophyte, whats a power adder? What do you do different when building an engine for nitrous? Just looking to be steered in the right direction, Thanks, Josh. P.S...more questionsto follow....:confused:
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
A power adder is something like a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous.

I got the feling from your post, that it bothered you that I said that you shouldn't go wild on a street engine. If you want to build an engine like Sven recommends, you can do that. No one will critisize you for it. I was just trying to help a self professed neophyte, avoid the same mistakes I made.

Jose
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
A power adder is something like a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous.

I got the feling from your post, that it bothered you that I said that you shouldn't go wild on a street engine. If you want to build an engine like Sven recommends, you can do that. No one will critisize you for it. I was just trying to help a self professed neophyte, avoid the same mistakes I made.

Jose

After re-reading your post, I may have been mistaken on my first assessment. I 'm sorry I didn't read it closer.

To answer the question you asked, I will list the few things I do to get 200 hp. reliably.

1. I have the heads milled, but no more than .030, because these engines are of a thin wall design, and there isn't much material there to begin with.

2. I replace the stock valves, with ones from a 2.9 V6.

3. I have the heads ported and polished by a professional. I don't personally have the kind of patience it requires to sit hour after hour with a hot die grinder in my hand.

4. I use a cam profile that was recommended to me by the guy that ported my first heads. It is a dual pattern cam, to better suit the flow patterns of these head castings. I use a stock set of new 2.9 V6 springs. I have found no need to use expensive after market springs.

5. I use an Offenhouser four barrel intake manifold, with a Holley 390 cfm carburetor. I have never used one of the Carter 410 cfm carbs, but I think it might be even better than the Holley, especially for nthe engine that has the bigger 2.9 valves.

6. I recommend having a steel cam gear made, rather than using the aluminum replacement gear. I have had two of them break on me. No fun. Luckily, these engines don't have the valves at an angle to the piston tops, because it would have bent some of the valves when the cam gear broke.

These things can be done to an engine that is already built and in good shape. The following things, I recommend to do if you either have your engine rebuilt or you do it yourself. The above procedures will produce better than 200 hp. reliably.

7. Use the very best parts you can. Don't go with the cheapest parts.

8. I have all my rebiulds balanced, to increase longivity, smoothness and economy.

9. I recommend using a NEW high volume oil pump. Melling makes them, the last time I looked.

The following procedures, I recommend for anyone who wants to use a power adder. If the engine is producing more than 300 hp., it will shuffel the main caps, ruining the block. These engines have only four mains, so need a bit of help holding all that power.

10. I have the two center mains pinned. The way I do this, is by making some steel rings to place in the counter bore that the block has where the main bolts go. If someone wants to do this procedure, please send me an e-mail and I will describe what has to be done.

11. I replace all the rod bolts, with ARP bolts from a 298 Ford v8. They will fit perfectly.

12. I have the rods beamed, (removinging the parting line of the rod beam), and shot peened at the same time.

13. I use custom forged pistons, with no more than 8.0 to 1 compression. I would have them made with the ring pack grooves lowered, to avoid the extra heat the power adder creates. I use gapless rings, to increase sealing of the gases.

These last procedures will help the engine last longer than a struck match. I hope this answers most of your questions.

Jose:)
 
F

fowfam

Thanks again for the advice/info, as always, you're a Gentleman and a scholar. Thanks, Josh
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Josh, I don't want Jose to think I am agreeing with him (terrible natural events might destroy the world), but I would like to to say a couple of things. Dave Williams, a engine gent that is pretty popular on the internet, has a saying "Power is cheap, reliabilitly costs money" Another very smart dude, David Vizard, advises that an engine's power is more than a sum of it parts, more like multiplication, modifications build upon each other. So if building "the same engine" with only a few modifications left out, be prepared to be diasppointed.

Bill
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hold On guys! I think I see a crack in the sky and it's about to fall!:)

Bill,

The laws of probability say that we can't possibly disagree on everything. I guess we just have to accept it.

Jose:)
 

bluoval

Donation Time
how far is to far

thanks jose for the build info am a little confused in the prev post you indicated that pistons be no more than 8 to1 and advise milling the heads and decking the block to raise the comp ratio to around 9.1 to 9.2 im sure you have a reason for this in leiu of pistons would like to know why?? thanks earl (blu oval)
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
thanks jose for the build info am a little confused in the prev post you indicated that pistons be no more than 8 to1 and advise milling the heads and decking the block to raise the comp ratio to around 9.1 to 9.2 im sure you have a reason for this in leiu of pistons would like to know why?? thanks earl (blu oval)
Hi Earl,

Milling the heads is for a normally aspirated engine, so you can get to 8.5 to 1, so you'll get a bit more compression to make power. (I think I put the 8.0 to 1 as a maximum compression, under a section for power adder engines.) The 8.0 to 1 statement, is for those engines that are going to have a power adder to increase power. With a power adder, you'll want lower static compression, because the power adder will raise the compression by force feeding more air into the cylinders, or in the case of nitrous oxide injection, adding more gasoline and oxygen, (in the form of nitrous oxide, which under heat and flame, releases oxygen molecules to help oxidize the added gasoline.), which produces more pressure, raising the compression in the cylinder. You do not want to mill the heads on an engine that you intend using a power adder on.

I personally prefer 7.5 to 1 as a static compression when using a power adder, to avoid detonation, or having to use an ignition retard to control detonation. The pistons I use (custom forged), have a dish in the top, rather than a flat top like the stock pistons have.

Jose:)
 

bluoval

Donation Time
how for is too far

jose thanks for the clearing up the compresion question as to turbo or superchargers vs a normal aspirated 2.8 . with the nornal aspirated 2.8 and using the cam you sugest along with the heads p&p also the larger valves .how high of a comp ratio do you recomend and by what means do you recomend for geting there ,pistons or milling heads & block decking or combo of both pistons & milling decking i understand that the heads are a little thin and not too much can be milled have the number 20 thous comes to mind as the max ?? and 10 thou.off the block should be around 9-1 or 9-2.. does the comp ratio have an effect on the cam power curve?? a local builder tells me to get 200 hp i need to have at least a 10 to 1 comp ratio.( dont know the cam specs he has been using) i definately dont want to go the 10 to 1 route sense this little pine is to be used as a daily driver and reliability is number 1 , but i also have the macho thing of as much hp as possiable but dont want to get into the octane boost thing . thanks earl blu oval seems my lack of knowledge can get me in big trouble
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Earl.

Milling .030 from the heads has proven reliable, but absolutely no more than that. The stock compression is at 8.0 to 1. Taking off .030 from the heads, will get you about .8.5 to 1. If you take off .020 from the block, it should get you about 8.9 to 1, which is about as far as I recommend going with a street engine. If you want more than that, I would recommend not milling the heads, and truing up the block to make sure it is square to the crank, and then, only remove a minimum of material to do so. The compression can be raised with custom pop up pistons to get to where you want, but I caution you; don't go too far, becauuse you will need to run race gas to get any kind of power before detonation sets in. Higher compression will help with any cam. The cam profile is usually changed to improve cylinder filling. This usually is a compromise, where you sacrifice a bit on the bottom end, to get more at higher revs.

If you port and polish the heads and add the 2.9 V6 valves, along with using the cam I recommend, you can make 200 easily. Of course, you will also need the Offy intake manifold and Holley four barrel carb, but it is definitely doable, and you don't need 10.0 to 1 to do it. Jim Ellis is running this combination and he says it is making better than the 200 hp I said it would.

Maybe your mechanic isn't taking into consideration the headers, cam, porting, valves, and intake system we use, which has a lot to do with horse power. These little engines will surprise a lot of folks, because they just make a lot of power with the right combination of parts.

Just don't go crazy with compression.

Jose:)
 

weaselkeeper

Silver Level Sponsor
I just got a Racer Walsh catalog in the mail yesterday. They list 9.0-1 pistons and mention .030 overbore in stock as well. Of course the cost is probably more than milling the block .030. p/n 6498 forged pistons w/ pins for $539.00. Add $95 if you want rings for them. They also mention two different cam grinds. (260 dur & .425 lift) or (264 dur & .448 lift) Has any one out there used a combination of these parts? If so, please give and opinion. I'm about to disassemble my engine and want to start buying parts. Thanks again.
 
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