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Head flow test results

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Andrew Gibson at Gibson performance completed the flow test for an Alpine head with various valve configurations.


Here are the results:
upload_2022-11-2_11-46-40.png






And the winners are:

Flow test #3 INTAKE uses a Datsun diesel valve - LD28 Provides 21.5 to 22.5 % increase vs stock at .400" to .450" lift
Flow test #4 EXHAUST uses a Datsun 240 Z valve - L24 Provides 31.5 to 34.1% increase vs stock at .400 to .450" lift

The chambers (except stock) were all given a Vizard modification and mild bowl work (smoothing).
Flow test #2 shows the Vizard modification has a slight improvement on air flow vs stock.
The valve modification results in significant improvement for air flow vs stock .
Gibson recognized that the valve stem length of both LD28 and L24 were slightly shorter than stock. This would change the rocker arm's geometry. He will look to find a perfect matching stem to retain the original rocker geometry.[/ATTACH]
 

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bernd_st

Bronze Level Sponsor
Jerry, amazing findings. You are really making good progress. 22.5% on the inlet & 34% on outlet are rather significant flow improvements. Interesting to me is that further increase in lift reduces the gain...
 

Five Reviver

Silver Level Sponsor
Jerry, so generous of you to share this. It removes the blindfold.
I would love to hear if your man Andrew comes up with those valve sizes with perfect matching stems or longer ones which can be shortened.
In my current build I was leaning towards sticking with my current standard valves and Vizard head, to go with Dan's new school pistons and long rods but now I'm thinking a bit more adventurously.
David
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
For comparison, some old info. Of unknown origin.

Seems to corroborate the info quite well.

DW

holbay[1].jpeg
 
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alpine_64

Donation Time
@Five Reviver

David,

The vizard mod will increase flow bit loose compression... Also depends how skimmed your head is ... And what compression you get via flat tops, deck height and bore.... But carefully deshrouding the spark plug and cleaning ports with bigger valves is also good.

What compression are you aiming to run?

This was the head on my racer with larger datsun valves:

index.php
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
I have been using Chevy V6 valves because they have slightly bigger stems (8mm?), perfect for reaming old Alpine guides to.

And they have close enough stem lengths.

In the future, I plan to bite the bullet and find valves with smaller stem diameters, 6 or 7 mm.

Good timing, I have a connection to a new head Guy. Planning to talk to him soon.

DW
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
One thing of note, port flow STILL dies (VERY diminished returns) at the upper valve lifts, of a VERY old school of around .400 or more.

These days, .500+ is STREET stuff and .600 is more common on RACE engines.

More work needs to be done on RACE Alpine heads, Me thinks.

DW
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
One thing of note, port flow STILL dies (VERY diminished returns) at the upper valve lifts, of a VERY old school of around .400 or more.

These days, .500+ is STREET stuff and .600 is more common on RACE engines.

More work needs to be done on RACE Alpine heads, Me thinks.

DW
How do we overcome the limitation of the Rooted exhaust ports o_O
 

Five Reviver

Silver Level Sponsor
Michael, 650547F6-34A6-40AD-A162-B4D4E5C02EC9.jpeg Here’s a combustion chamber, cc’d at 38. Compression last assembly was 10.3 as far as we could work out. Above all I want this engine to be durable.
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
For comparison, some old info. Of unknown origin.

Seems to corroborate the info quite well.

DW

View attachment 27248

Dan, interesting chart. Clearly the valve selections I have made are a significant improvement over the Holbay configuration. My intake and exhaust valves provide a 26% and 51% improvement over the Holbay head.
Now the task is to align the cam shaft with these flow rate outcomes.
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
The data in the original post indicates that a suitably modified 1725 head can flow about 165-170 CFM on the intake side and about 125 CFM on the exhaust side.

Current wisdom is that a "good" naturally aspirated 4-cylinder gasoline engine should be able to make about 1 HP for every CFM of intake port flow. Part of "good" is that the exhaust port flow should be at least 75-80% of the intake port flow, that the compression ratio needs to be about 10:1 and that peak power needs to be 6,500+ RPM. I suspect that something appreciably higher than 91 octane would be required to avoid detonation around peak torque.

A little more exhaust flow would probably help , but 165-170 CFM intake port flow and 120-125 CFM exhaust port flow should produce something like 160 HP on a good day. The bigger challenge may be not letting the smoke out.
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
Yes, CW HAS been, put a LARGE % of your effort

and Real Estate on the Intake side.


The problems with the Alpine head may suggest

A rethink on the CW numbers, Ex to In.


Clearly, a bigger Ex valve is working on the flow bench.

Now, How big can we make those PORTS?

DW
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
That is where my 4 into 1 exhaust system will come in. It should provide significant exhaust scavenging allowing for more flow. We shall see after dyno testing.
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
I finally bit the bullet and cut up a head. It's a 1966 SV head casting 1980987.

This head was deemed the least likely to be reused. It was surfaced severely on an angle,

front to back and getting into the side cover bolt holes.

IMG_20221116_142006470.jpg

My immediate thinking is to move the valves closer to the manifold side to open up the short turn area.

This potential change has several benefits.

DW
 
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spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
And a look at the original IRON head suggests not much change in the port shape casting cores.

So my guess is that all the spark plug tube type aluminum heads have a very similar port wall thickness/casting core shape?

AlpineHeadPorts01.jpg
 
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Five Reviver

Silver Level Sponsor
After a long wait I got a call today advising that machining for my long rod engine is about to occur and the head rebuild too with larger valves as suggested by Jerry’s flow testing.

The last piece of the head puzzle (to the limit of what I’m doing anyway) has not been resolved though. It’s whether there are valves out there with a perfect stem length, rather than the slightly shorter LD28 and L24.

If not we will adapt but I wonder if anyone has found valves which allow the original rocker geometry to be retained? My guy hasn’t found them yet so he’s going to start with getting a sample of each of the Nissan valves to see how it will build up.

David
 

Shannon Boal

Platinum Level Sponsor
Fantastic flow/lift information.
As a starting point, Intake valve dimensions 1.503" diameter; 0.3110" stem diameter; 4.66" overall length......Exhaust 1.204" diameter, 0.3110" stem diameter, 4.66" OAL (Per https://picclick.co.uk/Hillman-Hunter-GT-Sceptre-Rapier-Sunbeam-Alpine-1725-292602541687.html)
Machine shops used to have all the data available for every valve. I don't know if this is still the case....

How about this: install the Datsun Diesel valves, whatever you have and measure the valve stem installed height. Is it low, then how much? A "lash cap" may be an option. How is your spring installed height?
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
Part of the equation that is Head Flow

is the Combustion chamber shape

and/or Valve shrouding/unshrouding.

so to add to this thread, some chamber

unshrouding efforts, starting off with the

classic Vizard mod.


Note, the Vizard mod uses a stock Ex

valve and there is no work done around there.

As Jerry points out above, a bigger Ex valve

helps a Bunch!

And, I'm wondering if Vizard would do it different

if he did it today?


The good news (hopefully) is the Old sage

head guy, I have known for a long time, is retiring

from his "Day job", so maybe some Alpine head work

may happen, on my end.

AlpineVizard00.jpg

Is this Maybe a newer result Vizard would come up with??

PIC00007.JPG

Some more..

AlpineHeadchamberJL001.png

Holbay

HolbayIMG_20220315_140821968_HDR.jpg

IMG_20210609_190132437.jpg
DW
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
To follow on DW's comments and photos:
Here is a photo of the head used in the flow rate measure. Note the welds to address the water passage issues. I had gaskets made to address the change.

1705597413072.png

Compared to stock head:
1705598834414.png
 
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