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Yet another clutch question

67Survivor

67Survivor

Donation Time
Hi everyone,
I am sure this has been covered a million times, but I haven't found any answers yet, so here goes....

I pull away from a stop light, go to shift into second and she won't go into gear. I rev it a little and coax it into second, but at the next light it won't go into first. The clutch seemed to be only partially disengaging as the car would move slightly if I started it in gear.

The PO had just installed a generic clutch master and slave from the local autoparts dealer before I bought the car. After 40 km, I had the above experience. The slave that was installed was not self adjusting and was at the final few threads on the rod. I decided to order the "correct" replacement slave and master from SS, complete with a new line and the adapter to compensate for the different size of fittings. The input on the slave is the same size as the original, but the output is a smaller size, and the line is smaller. I just finished bleeding it with a mityvac. The result is the same, if not worse. I get only about 1/2" of movement in the arm that the slave is attached to.

The question: The master that was in there had a small rectangular aluminum block as a spacer between the firewall and the master cylinder. Is this a stock part, or possibly added by the PO to compensate for the generic master? If this is a stock part, do I need to leave it in with this new setup from SS? Has anyone else bought this complete setup from SS that can shed some light on this for me?

I do lose about 200 RPM when I push in the clutch pedal, but if it isn't fully disengaging, I would expect that partial drag would affect RPM.
The thrust washers seem to be OK, but TBH, I haven't been able to push the clutch pedal and look at the crank at the same time... I'm just not that talented.
It shifts just fine when it is not running.

As always, any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated, as would a link to any other posts on this forum that could help me out.

The SS part number for the clutch master is HP25T - TVS Girling 5/8
The SS part number for the clutch slave is HP56 - RUKC8677TRW
 
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R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
If both master and slave are not stock then you will need to know the relationship between the bore size of the master and the bore size of the slave.
Needs to have the same relationship as the stock master and slave and able to provide the required stroke on the slave for full engagement.
Thats a lot of variables huh?

Also having a return spring on the slave can prevent full disengagement so you will want to remove that is you have one in place. You shouldnt need one anyhow since the clutch will return the slave and master to its static position and since the master will then be returned home, the master can take a fresh gulp of fluid and the system is self adjusting.
 
67Survivor

67Survivor

Donation Time
I ordered both the master and slave from SS at the same time, and specified what car it is for. I would expect that Rick at SS would send me parts that work together, but I guess I will double check with him. I don't have the spring on it, and I dont have the spacer in. I am getting full pedal travel and have bled the sh*t out of it. I am starting to think that the bore sizes may not be compatible....
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
67Survivor said:
I ordered both the master and slave from SS at the same time, and specified what car it is for. I would expect that Rick at SS would send me parts that work together, but I guess I will double check with him. I don't have the spring on it, and I dont have the spacer in. I am getting full pedal travel and have bled the sh*t out of it. I am starting to think that the bore sizes may not be compatible....
Click to expand...

I wonder if the master cyl you were provided is aftermarket and the spacer was needed so you dont run out of pedal at the end of the cylinder.

IIRC all alpines used .625 (5/8) bores in the master side.

Also the slave can be installed on both sides of the bellhousing. Make sure yours is correct.
 
SoCal'beaming

SoCal'beaming

Donation Time
RootesRacer Also the slave can be installed on both sides of the bellhousing. Make sure yours is correct.[/QUOTE said:
When I bought my '62 I had this issue and found the slave was mounted on the front of the bell instead of behind it ... switched it ... problem solved.

... David
Click to expand...
 
67Survivor

67Survivor

Donation Time
I believe the spacer was installed by the PO to accommodate the generic part that he installed, which was not a recommended replacement. I have tried both with and without the spacer with the same result.
The slave is mounted on the Transmission side of the bellhousing. I checked, and both slave and master are 5/8.
Is it possible that the master is not starting at the right point inside of the cylinder, and therefore moving less fluid than it should? Meaning that if it is starting 1/3 of the way in before it even moves, it would move 1/3 less fluid. it is as far out as it wants to be when I attach it to the pedal.
Could this be an internal issue such as the fork slipping out of the bearing?
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
There is yet another possible issue and that is the clutch type (its height) must be matched with the correct throw out pedestal for that clutch/flywheel combo. There are two types/heights of TO pedestals and having the wrong one can be problematic due to incorrect geometry of the resultant TO arc.


Unfortunately testing for this involves the removal of the transmission as the pedestal mounts to the inside of the bellhousing.

these are the types of problems we face when mixing and matching different years of engines and transmissions.
 
RootesRooter

RootesRooter

Donation Time
Do you have any idea of the age/history of the clutch itself? If you had a threaded, adjustable rod, perhaps a PO installed an early Series clutch so he could run a wider disc. It would have a much thicker flywheel than on SV.

The fork doesn't need to move very far to disengage the clutch. A little over 1/2" is what I vaguely remember from the last time I helped a friend with his Hillman. (The Hillman was eventually found to have the same geometry problem noted by RootesRacer)

Or it could just be an old, worn clutch, maybe with a broken spring in the disc.
 
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67Survivor

67Survivor

Donation Time
So....
pretty much everything was wrong with the clutch. The only part that was working properly was the hydraulic system that I installed. The Disk was worn out and shredding, as well as wearing unevenly(Improperly installed?) The pressure plate needed replacing and the metal ring on the end was very loose. The spline was rusty. The flywheel needed resurfacing and the tabs were not bent down correctly. The dowel pin was bent. The bottom plate on the shifter box was not attached. There was metal on metal everywhere in there that should not have been. The long and short is that as much as it seemed like an adjustment or hydraulic issue, it was an everything issue. But now it is fixed and I can put a few miles on her before she tells me what she wants next....
 
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