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Who knew the axle ring moves!?

Discussion in '"Stock" Alpine' started by puff4, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. puff4

    puff4 Gold Level Sponsor

    So today I was working on my Series V’s rear axle assembly, pressing off the old axle bearings and installing new ones. The old ones came off begrudgingly with about 12 tons of force. I then cleaned up the axles in the parts washer and set about pressing on the new bearings (with the metal “inner sludge ring” in place behind them). I put a bearing separator under the steel ring near the end of the axle and then pressed on the bearing, using the ring to press against, assuming it was part of the axle. Guess what? It’s not. The bearing pressed on, and seated up against the ring, but the ring also moved nearer to the end of the axle, with the result that the bearing is only half pressed on and the wheel hub won’t go fully onto the axle. Ugh. I could not find a spec for the proper distance for that ring on the axle, so to solve my problem I pressed the bearing, sludge ring and the axle ring onto the axle as an assembly using the hub... when the hub bottomed out on the taper I figure that’s the correct location for all the items on the axle. But I’m left wondering how that ring doesn’t move on the axle while in service, allowing the axle and hub to walk out at least until the point where the axle gets thicker.

    Anyone else had a problem with that ring moving? Does anyone know the proper distance for installation?
  2. puff4

    puff4 Gold Level Sponsor

    The rings that moved on the axle shafts are the ones circled in red. They don't show as separate parts, but they do indeed press off the shafts!

  3. Tim R

    Tim R Silver Level Sponsor

    Kevin it is designed to move to locate the bearing and spacers etc. The workshop manual gives the amount that you should move it as 1/32"! In reality I usually move them more than that. When it isn't moved properly you can end up with the backplate and brake drum not meshing correctly and having a gap at the edges. I have seen loads of Alpines with this problem.
    I hope that this video might help. Tim R

  4. puff4

    puff4 Gold Level Sponsor

    Thanks very much, Tim! So, if I’m getting you right, the ring is moved slightly outboard, then the sludge ring and bearing are pressed on just to nip up to the ring, and then the tightening of the hub pulls it all together into the proper distance?
  5. Tim R

    Tim R Silver Level Sponsor

    It goes Collar Ring on shaft pull slightly outwards, them fit splash guard ring, then fit bearing. The sludge guard usually stays in the axle housing but make sure it is all clean and fit assembly to axle following the video for how we re-assemble and seal ours.

    As with all things I am sure that there are multiple ways to do jobs like this. The videos just show how WE do this on our Alpines. There may be people on here who disagree or do it other ways but I can tell you that our way works for us.

    Tim R
  6. puff4

    puff4 Gold Level Sponsor

    I’m not disagreeing, Tim. Indeed, I’m extremely grateful for your advice. I’m just trying to better understand. I think we are referring to the same ring. - I had thought the parts manual referred to that splash ring behind the bearing as the “inner sludge guard” (and the cupped one that fits in the axle housing recess was called the “outer sludge guard”) but I could be wrong,

    But my main question is...
    Ultimately that collar ring must be moved back from the 1/32+ outboard relocation, though, right? And I presume the tightening of the hub nut accomplishes this by compressing the hub against the bearing —> splash/inner sludge ring —> collar ring, until the hub bottoms out on the axle taper?
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  7. Tim R

    Tim R Silver Level Sponsor


    I didn't mean that you were disagreeing, just that there are often people who do disagree and have their own ways of doing this type of job.

    Rootes didn't make it easy with the naming of some of their parts or the way that they do their parts drawings! For example the half shaft with the collar ring (sleeve ring) on is shown as Part 38 and looks like one solid piece! It is only in the description that it says axle shaft c/w sleeve and showing both early and late Series seal assemblies on the same drawing hardly aids clarity.

    The pictures attached may help to clarify the order.

    In answer to your main question, once the parts are in the correct order and the collar has been moved outwards by a small amount it should all go back together correctly when the hub fits to the taper and is torqued up.

    I hope that this helps.

    Best Wishes,

    Tim R

    Rear Axle 1.jpeg Rear Axle.jpeg
  8. puff4

    puff4 Gold Level Sponsor

    That clears it up, Tim, thanks!

    And I note that the parts listing changed the name of that cupped outer ring from 'splash guard' to 'sludge guard' when it went to Series V. I guess things stopped splashing and started sludging somewhere in there! ;):D
  9. Eleven

    Eleven Gold Level Sponsor

    So...question. If the gaps are not right, would you get movement (rotational) of the wheel even though the brake is on? Let me explain;
    I have a persistent clunk (SV, wire wheels) when braking or starting out in the right rear. Have changed hubs, wheel, diff and all the bushings to no avail.
    Was under the car a bit ago and had the hand brake on. I got under the car and found that on the right rear, I could move the tire and brake drum about an inch or two. Got the spinner hammer out and wailed on the spinner beyond good sense and was able to stop the rotation and clunk. Made no sense to me.
    Do you think there is any connection? I know I have and think the PO has also take the thing apart so when you said you have seen this gap before, it got me to wondering.
    Thanks for the video; have a Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and be safe!
  10. Tim R

    Tim R Silver Level Sponsor

    I make no claim to be an expert and there are probably others on here who know much more than I do but from what you describe I think that the splines on the wheel and wheel hub are worn rather than anything else being wrong. When you rock the locked up wheel it moves on the splines, when you tighten the spinner really tight it is much harder for the wheel to move on the worn splines. When you drive it I suspect that it will soon clonk again. The only real solution is to replace the hubs and wheels.

    Tim R
  11. Eleven

    Eleven Gold Level Sponsor

    I actually agree, was hoping that there was another possibility. Oh well. I have the parts to move away from wires, just have to do some other work before that. Thanks Tim and have a Merry Christmas!
  12. Gordon Holsinger

    Gordon Holsinger Platinum Level Sponsor

    It sounds like the splines on both the hub and wheel are shot. The rr wheel is the power wheel and it takes a beating. Doug at tiger auto told me about this. Go online for motor wheel service in England can supply new hubs.
  13. Gordon Holsinger

    Gordon Holsinger Platinum Level Sponsor

    Series V hubs are a larger diameter
  14. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    Several decades ago we had the spacer to get moved by a local shop. The car ended up at Doug's and the problem was corrected. The main reason is that he has the knowledge and proper tools to do the job of replacing the bearing..
  15. Gordon Holsinger

    Gordon Holsinger Platinum Level Sponsor

    Bob I can agree with you Doug has a lot of knowledge about our cars, and some things he is the best bet when my new garage is under roof I am sending my front suspension to him for rebuild.
  16. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    I have a late front crossmember that he recently rebuilt and is stored on the shelf. Don't have a car for it yet but Jean says it will end up on the third Harrington if we ever get that far. Did I ever tell you that this Harrington was about a mile from Wally's house when we bought it in 1989. He knew it because it had a connection to the dealer in Silver Spring. Wally bought our red Harrington from the original owner in Annapolis.
  17. Gordon Holsinger

    Gordon Holsinger Platinum Level Sponsor

    Bob when Wally bought that car I did some work on it. If I remember correctly I changed the brake fluid bled the brakes, fixed a switch, and replaced a head light, synchronized the carbs. I didn’t know that you bought it.
    I have a local guy who is a master welder and a car guy who when I have the cross member who will fix and reinforce the shock mounts and other weak points on the cross member. Doug will replace the fulcrum bushings and ball joints.
    I asked about the feeler gauges a couple of weeks ago. You replied that you had some.
    BTW I was going some Beam stuff recently that I will post. It is a Hartwell catalogue from 1970-72. If I remember it has some HLM things in it. Rite now my archives are in storage because we in the process of moving and building an addition on our new home. Have a great holiday.
  18. Eleven

    Eleven Gold Level Sponsor

    I could not find the hub diameters in the WSM's. I wonder if I have a SIV or earlier hub on my SV; or will one just not go on. I know the earlier ones have seals
  19. Gordon Holsinger

    Gordon Holsinger Platinum Level Sponsor

    Series V have thin O rings that go on the bearings
  20. DanR

    DanR Diamond Level Sponsor

    Tracy, the SV Rear Axles are larger in diameter where the hub slips on the shaft threaded end. The SIV may go on a short distance because it is tapered but not sufficient to be mounted correctly.

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