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Where's The Tip On Converting to Negative Ground
- Thread starter mxp01
- Start date
Jim E
Donation Time
Mike, I assume you've found the article by going to the link Jim posted, then clicking on the "Tech Tips" link there, and then clicking on the "Converting from Positive to Negative",article.
But I must say, I'm not sure that it's wise to make the change yet. If you cannot figure out what is wrong with the existing system, where the existing system is a known quantity, at least known to many of us and well documented in the manual, how would you expect to troubleshoot some new configuration, with so many more unknowns? I have been looking for your reply to the responses I and others have made on your previous request for help. Have seen none.
My suggestion: get the original set up resolved -if not fixed then at least understand what is wrong, and learn. Then , if you decide that an alternator is a better solution or you have some other reason to change, then do so.
See my response to your previous question - have you taken those steps and determined if the Generator is faulty? What have you found? Is it the generator or something else?
And note the article referrred to points out that you do not need to switch to an alternator to change polarity. But also note that you do need to change polarity to switch to an alternator.
Good luck,
Tom
But I must say, I'm not sure that it's wise to make the change yet. If you cannot figure out what is wrong with the existing system, where the existing system is a known quantity, at least known to many of us and well documented in the manual, how would you expect to troubleshoot some new configuration, with so many more unknowns? I have been looking for your reply to the responses I and others have made on your previous request for help. Have seen none.
My suggestion: get the original set up resolved -if not fixed then at least understand what is wrong, and learn. Then , if you decide that an alternator is a better solution or you have some other reason to change, then do so.
See my response to your previous question - have you taken those steps and determined if the Generator is faulty? What have you found? Is it the generator or something else?
And note the article referrred to points out that you do not need to switch to an alternator to change polarity. But also note that you do need to change polarity to switch to an alternator.
Good luck,
Tom
mxp01
Platinum Level Sponsor
Tom:
Here is an update:
- We are getting 20 volts from the generator - so it's not a problem.
- We have repolarized the generator - so that shouldn't be an issue.
- We have cleaned the contact points on the voltage regulator - still not getting a charge back to the battery.
We went to a car show on Saturday. Someone we met recommeded checking the ignition light, that it could possibly stop the return to the battery. We found that the light was burned out, so we replaced the bulb and it did light, but there is still no recharge back to the battery.
My son says there is 12 volts coming out of the "A" terminal, as if it is just running off the battery. The ammeter indicates power being drawn down, but nothing being charged back to the battery.
We suspect that we might have a bad voltage regulator. We recently purchased it from VB for $30, but, to my knowledge, there is no way to test these things. Rick at SS sells a voltage regulator for $50+. Is it different? Better? I don't know, but I hate to throw good money after bad. The guy I met at the show over the weekend (he has a TR4) said he purchased an inexpensive alternator for about $30 on Ebay and switched his car. The alternator has an internal voltage regulator, so I don't have to raise the question of another faulty (or not) voltage regulator.
We've traced a number of lines on this car and can't determine what's wrong. I really want to get it operational but at my wits wnd at this point.
Mike Pennell
Here is an update:
- We are getting 20 volts from the generator - so it's not a problem.
- We have repolarized the generator - so that shouldn't be an issue.
- We have cleaned the contact points on the voltage regulator - still not getting a charge back to the battery.
We went to a car show on Saturday. Someone we met recommeded checking the ignition light, that it could possibly stop the return to the battery. We found that the light was burned out, so we replaced the bulb and it did light, but there is still no recharge back to the battery.
My son says there is 12 volts coming out of the "A" terminal, as if it is just running off the battery. The ammeter indicates power being drawn down, but nothing being charged back to the battery.
We suspect that we might have a bad voltage regulator. We recently purchased it from VB for $30, but, to my knowledge, there is no way to test these things. Rick at SS sells a voltage regulator for $50+. Is it different? Better? I don't know, but I hate to throw good money after bad. The guy I met at the show over the weekend (he has a TR4) said he purchased an inexpensive alternator for about $30 on Ebay and switched his car. The alternator has an internal voltage regulator, so I don't have to raise the question of another faulty (or not) voltage regulator.
We've traced a number of lines on this car and can't determine what's wrong. I really want to get it operational but at my wits wnd at this point.
Mike Pennell
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
From what i am reading, you have already changed to negative ground. If you are using an ammeter that was previously installed in the car for your readings, then you need to reverse the leads on the ammeter terminals as well or it will read in reverse. The way the current flows does matter to the way an ammeter displays current flow. Changing the polarity reverses current flow.
HTH,
mxp01
Platinum Level Sponsor
Don:
We have not intentionally changed to negative ground. We are still operating under the assumption the car is set up for positive ground.
We have had the ammeter in the car for a few years. It still only reads one way (toward -30, draining power), but not the other way (+30 restoring power).
That is our current (no pun intended) state of affairs.
MXP
We have not intentionally changed to negative ground. We are still operating under the assumption the car is set up for positive ground.
We have had the ammeter in the car for a few years. It still only reads one way (toward -30, draining power), but not the other way (+30 restoring power).
That is our current (no pun intended) state of affairs.
MXP
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
A couple of things to try:
With the car turned off, turn on the headlights, push on the brake,
fire up the blower and wipers (if they work) and look at your ammeter.
Should read discharge, deflecting to the left at several amps. If it barely moves, but the lights are bright and wipers chuggin' away, they you're not accurately measuring current in either direction. If it moves to the right, your voltage reference ("ground") is not in agreement between your measurement system and your source. If the battery has a nice clean, thick cable (that actually conducts electricity at high current) from the negative terminal to the chassis, your car is wired as negative ground whether or not the rest of the wiring agrees with that. Analysis of the actual underhood wiring vs. your documentation will tell you if the rest of the system is wired as neg or pos ground.
Next test is to verify that all the wires associated with the charging system are continuous, not intermittant, and have corrrectly fitting, non-corroded connectors. Undocumented surgery could have been done within the wiring harness itself. Get a voltmeter with a continuity setting, some good clip leads, and hook 'em up to each end of the wire... and disconnect the device the wire should go to. Verify the wire's continuity while flexing it about. (A tone-based meter is best for this.) Tone should be continuous. If it's intermittent or scratchy, there could be discontinuities within that wire. Bug out the whole charging system like this, including ground connections from the battery to the chassis, and the chassis to the engine.
After all the wires check out, re-verify their connections to the various components. Do this by the book, by the color code (if original) and not by little tags written on the wires by others. If you can't tell the colors, I find that cleaning the exposed ends of the wires' insulation with go-jo hand cleaner (citrus based, with grit) works well to reveal the wire's true colors.
Once you do that stuff, then you have a good basis to check and pass/condemn the various components of the system... generator, regulator, etc. that others have talked about.
It's also best to start with a known good, charged battery, so that a bad battery doesn't cause/mask problems.
Checking the generator area for clues to pos/neg ground could be investigating things that have been monkeyed with in the past...
If you look at the 12V side of the distributor, that's somewhat less likely
to have been messed with by uninformed mechanics in the past.
Hang in there!
Ken
With the car turned off, turn on the headlights, push on the brake,
fire up the blower and wipers (if they work) and look at your ammeter.
Should read discharge, deflecting to the left at several amps. If it barely moves, but the lights are bright and wipers chuggin' away, they you're not accurately measuring current in either direction. If it moves to the right, your voltage reference ("ground") is not in agreement between your measurement system and your source. If the battery has a nice clean, thick cable (that actually conducts electricity at high current) from the negative terminal to the chassis, your car is wired as negative ground whether or not the rest of the wiring agrees with that. Analysis of the actual underhood wiring vs. your documentation will tell you if the rest of the system is wired as neg or pos ground.
Next test is to verify that all the wires associated with the charging system are continuous, not intermittant, and have corrrectly fitting, non-corroded connectors. Undocumented surgery could have been done within the wiring harness itself. Get a voltmeter with a continuity setting, some good clip leads, and hook 'em up to each end of the wire... and disconnect the device the wire should go to. Verify the wire's continuity while flexing it about. (A tone-based meter is best for this.) Tone should be continuous. If it's intermittent or scratchy, there could be discontinuities within that wire. Bug out the whole charging system like this, including ground connections from the battery to the chassis, and the chassis to the engine.
After all the wires check out, re-verify their connections to the various components. Do this by the book, by the color code (if original) and not by little tags written on the wires by others. If you can't tell the colors, I find that cleaning the exposed ends of the wires' insulation with go-jo hand cleaner (citrus based, with grit) works well to reveal the wire's true colors.
Once you do that stuff, then you have a good basis to check and pass/condemn the various components of the system... generator, regulator, etc. that others have talked about.
It's also best to start with a known good, charged battery, so that a bad battery doesn't cause/mask problems.
Checking the generator area for clues to pos/neg ground could be investigating things that have been monkeyed with in the past...
If you look at the 12V side of the distributor, that's somewhat less likely
to have been messed with by uninformed mechanics in the past.
Hang in there!
Ken
Mike,
I'm not sure what you mean by the "A" terminal. The WSM says the terminals on the Gen are F and D , and on the Control box, there is D, F, B (goes to the Battery), E (goes to Ground) and WL (apparently not used).
Have you been able to follow the troubleshooting procedures in the WSM?
Ken has offered some good suggestions. Like me he is puzzled that you seem unsure of the polarity of your system, noting that you have not "intentionally" changed it. Very easy to determine. Which end of the battery is connected to the ground (chassis) cable? See Ken's ideas, or just put your voltmeter black (Neg) lead on the chassis, and put the red (pos) lead on the battery terminal. Assuming the Voltmeter is auto-polarity indicating, one terminal should cause Zero reading the other should read 12 V and tell you what polarity. If it reads NEG , then you have Pos Ground. If it reads POS, then your have Neg Ground.
NOt a bad idea to change to an alternator. especially is you use one with a built in reg. See the same link Jim gave you to find the article on Converting to an Alternator. I converted my SV from the Lucas Alternator system to a Mitsubishi alternator # 14231 from Advance:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?PartType=11&PTSet=A&SearchFor=Alternator
Note this link may not work right and may get to the wrong part number. But search for the Alternator for a 1980 Nissan 720 Pickup.
Will require a different mounting bracket to convert your SIV.
Good luck, Tom
I'm not sure what you mean by the "A" terminal. The WSM says the terminals on the Gen are F and D , and on the Control box, there is D, F, B (goes to the Battery), E (goes to Ground) and WL (apparently not used).
Have you been able to follow the troubleshooting procedures in the WSM?
Ken has offered some good suggestions. Like me he is puzzled that you seem unsure of the polarity of your system, noting that you have not "intentionally" changed it. Very easy to determine. Which end of the battery is connected to the ground (chassis) cable? See Ken's ideas, or just put your voltmeter black (Neg) lead on the chassis, and put the red (pos) lead on the battery terminal. Assuming the Voltmeter is auto-polarity indicating, one terminal should cause Zero reading the other should read 12 V and tell you what polarity. If it reads NEG , then you have Pos Ground. If it reads POS, then your have Neg Ground.
NOt a bad idea to change to an alternator. especially is you use one with a built in reg. See the same link Jim gave you to find the article on Converting to an Alternator. I converted my SV from the Lucas Alternator system to a Mitsubishi alternator # 14231 from Advance:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?PartType=11&PTSet=A&SearchFor=Alternator
Note this link may not work right and may get to the wrong part number. But search for the Alternator for a 1980 Nissan 720 Pickup.
Will require a different mounting bracket to convert your SIV.
Good luck, Tom
mikephillips
Donation Time
Depending on which regulator you have the terminals can be lettered differently. The RB106 that the early cars used functions the same as the RB340 the later cars have but the terminals are different.
mxp01
Platinum Level Sponsor
Tom,
A couple of things that are also going on with the electrical system: When the Car is being supplied Power (ignition ON) but the engine is not runing, the TAC will slowly rise. Does this have anything to do with my recharging issue?
If I put my voltmeter on one of the B Terminals should I read return power?
If/when I do put the alternator on, will I still need the Voltage Regulator?
UPDATE
All Wires Conduct Electricity
All Wires Are in Good Condition
The Car Is Positve Ground as all the Components
The Regulator is polarized
The Gen Works Great
The Ignition Light Turns out when the Engine is Slightly Accelerated
Ammeter Works correctly
But At the Battery no return power, (I'm taking a reading right from the battery)
Cade Pennell
(Mike's Son)
A couple of things that are also going on with the electrical system: When the Car is being supplied Power (ignition ON) but the engine is not runing, the TAC will slowly rise. Does this have anything to do with my recharging issue?
If I put my voltmeter on one of the B Terminals should I read return power?
If/when I do put the alternator on, will I still need the Voltage Regulator?
UPDATE
All Wires Conduct Electricity
All Wires Are in Good Condition
The Car Is Positve Ground as all the Components
The Regulator is polarized
The Gen Works Great
The Ignition Light Turns out when the Engine is Slightly Accelerated
Ammeter Works correctly
But At the Battery no return power, (I'm taking a reading right from the battery)
Cade Pennell
(Mike's Son)
Hello Son,
No, If you change to an alternator you will not need the regulator that is on the car now. Unless you choose the wrong alternator you will have a regulator built into the alternator. Almost all are that way, including the one I and others, suggest the Mitsubshi 12431. Regardless, your old generator regulator is not useable for Alternator regulation.
At the B terminal of the regulator you should read exactly the same voltage as at the battery. Unless I misunderstand the manual - and the manual is not real clear on this- the Battery is connected directly to this terminal.
I am not sure what you mean by reading "return power". What you should read at the battery , if the car is running and the generator turning fairy fast - faster than idle - is about 14 to 15 volts, about 1 or 2 volts more than it reads when the car is off. One better test is to read the voltage on the battery when the car is running - again fairly fast 1500 RPM or so, with the lights on. Read that voltage and then turn the car off. If the voltage drops a couple volts when you turn the car off, then your charging circuit and generator are working. When the battery is getting charged, the voltage on the battery goes up. The voltage goes up above even what it will have right after it is fully charged. If the voltage does not drop when you shut off the engine, then it surely was not getting chareged while it was running. YOu can make the same comparison by reading the voltage before you start it and then after it is running, and, of course it should go UP when it is running compared to when it was off. But that way of checking is a little more difficult and confusing because starting the car takes so much energy out of the battery that the OFF/On comparison confusesd the issue.
By the way, one advantage of an alternator, compared to a generator, is that it can put out enough current to operate the car and charge the battery even at idle speed.
Tach rising slowly just from turning the ignition on ??? Never heard of that. Can't imagine it being associated with any charging issues. Does it rise and then stay up? Or does it go up and then drop down after a few seconds?
Keep at it.
Tom
No, If you change to an alternator you will not need the regulator that is on the car now. Unless you choose the wrong alternator you will have a regulator built into the alternator. Almost all are that way, including the one I and others, suggest the Mitsubshi 12431. Regardless, your old generator regulator is not useable for Alternator regulation.
At the B terminal of the regulator you should read exactly the same voltage as at the battery. Unless I misunderstand the manual - and the manual is not real clear on this- the Battery is connected directly to this terminal.
I am not sure what you mean by reading "return power". What you should read at the battery , if the car is running and the generator turning fairy fast - faster than idle - is about 14 to 15 volts, about 1 or 2 volts more than it reads when the car is off. One better test is to read the voltage on the battery when the car is running - again fairly fast 1500 RPM or so, with the lights on. Read that voltage and then turn the car off. If the voltage drops a couple volts when you turn the car off, then your charging circuit and generator are working. When the battery is getting charged, the voltage on the battery goes up. The voltage goes up above even what it will have right after it is fully charged. If the voltage does not drop when you shut off the engine, then it surely was not getting chareged while it was running. YOu can make the same comparison by reading the voltage before you start it and then after it is running, and, of course it should go UP when it is running compared to when it was off. But that way of checking is a little more difficult and confusing because starting the car takes so much energy out of the battery that the OFF/On comparison confusesd the issue.
By the way, one advantage of an alternator, compared to a generator, is that it can put out enough current to operate the car and charge the battery even at idle speed.
Tach rising slowly just from turning the ignition on ??? Never heard of that. Can't imagine it being associated with any charging issues. Does it rise and then stay up? Or does it go up and then drop down after a few seconds?
Keep at it.
Tom
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Mike and Cade,
It's good that you went thru all that stuff, so you have a good basis for evaluating the individual components. I'm thinkin' that the brushes/commutator need attention in the generator, or the field coils have a discontinuity, (though it'd be just my luck that it's brand new...) Or the current relay in the voltage regulator is bad? It's like the system can generate voltage, but doesn't have the oomph to bring on the current. Have you tried the regulator adjustment procedure in the WSM? (The WSM assumes you have a mechanical VReg, with nice little coils of wire and little things to tweak...)
Is this a 'known good' battery? If you put a charger on the battery, and then measure the voltage after about 5 minutes, do you see elevated voltage, or does it still read just 12V? Any chance there's a leftover noise suppression device (for a radio) in-line with the battery? Or possibly a dual-battery diode assembly? (I'm grasping at straws here, guys...)
It's like either the generator cannot supply significant current to the system when it's asked to, or some non-wire element cannot pass the current it does generate. (Current is distinct from voltage here.)
Still thinkin'
Ken
It's good that you went thru all that stuff, so you have a good basis for evaluating the individual components. I'm thinkin' that the brushes/commutator need attention in the generator, or the field coils have a discontinuity, (though it'd be just my luck that it's brand new...) Or the current relay in the voltage regulator is bad? It's like the system can generate voltage, but doesn't have the oomph to bring on the current. Have you tried the regulator adjustment procedure in the WSM? (The WSM assumes you have a mechanical VReg, with nice little coils of wire and little things to tweak...)
Is this a 'known good' battery? If you put a charger on the battery, and then measure the voltage after about 5 minutes, do you see elevated voltage, or does it still read just 12V? Any chance there's a leftover noise suppression device (for a radio) in-line with the battery? Or possibly a dual-battery diode assembly? (I'm grasping at straws here, guys...)
It's like either the generator cannot supply significant current to the system when it's asked to, or some non-wire element cannot pass the current it does generate. (Current is distinct from voltage here.)
Still thinkin'
Ken
ozzie alpine
Bronze Level Sponsor
Hi Mike and Son,
I had what sounds like exactly the same charging problem on my Alpine.
I fixed it last night!
My symptoms:
- All wiring good
- Warning light goes out properly at approx 900rpm
- Generator working correctly (disconnect the 2 cables from regulator, jump them, and then measure voltage between the jumped connection and earth – start engine, run slowly to c. 2000rpm, should show c. 20 volts. Do not run engine at speed or for long as the generator is unregulated…Sounds like you have done this already...
- Ammeter shows discharge but no charge. Headlights do not brighten.
- Brand new voltage regulator (and I cleaned/checked the contacts)
Extra symptom, warning light goes out, but then comes back on very slightly as the engine speed increase/throttle blipped (hard to see, I only noticed as I happened to have the bulb holder hanging below the dash to check the bulb)
I have an RB340 regulator (the one with the B marked terminal rather than A), but the principle is the same for the RB106 which I think you have.
The problem:
The voltage regulator was incorrectly adjusted. The regulator is supposed to be factory set. If you are confident, and have the right tools you may be able to adjust it yourself. Otherwise either get another one or take it to an auto electrician (possibly with generator) and have it set correctly.
How do I know?:
Tested according to the Workshop Manual. Remove the 2 wires on the B terminals, and connect them together. Connect voltmeter between terminal D and earth. Start engine and rev to c. 3000rpm. Voltmeter will rise, should be steady, and should show approx 14.5 volts if working correctly (specs in WSM). Mine was showing 12 volts, meaning (I think) that in effect charging would only occur once battery voltage drops below 12 volts.
Solution:
With engine running, adjust voltage regulator by rotating the cam on top of the coil (might need a special tool, I used pointy-nose pliers). Clockwise to increase voltage and vice versa.
I adjusted mine until it read 14.5 V at 3000 rpm, and hey presto, the charging system now works!
Good luck
Cheers, Dave
I had what sounds like exactly the same charging problem on my Alpine.
I fixed it last night!
My symptoms:
- All wiring good
- Warning light goes out properly at approx 900rpm
- Generator working correctly (disconnect the 2 cables from regulator, jump them, and then measure voltage between the jumped connection and earth – start engine, run slowly to c. 2000rpm, should show c. 20 volts. Do not run engine at speed or for long as the generator is unregulated…Sounds like you have done this already...
- Ammeter shows discharge but no charge. Headlights do not brighten.
- Brand new voltage regulator (and I cleaned/checked the contacts)
Extra symptom, warning light goes out, but then comes back on very slightly as the engine speed increase/throttle blipped (hard to see, I only noticed as I happened to have the bulb holder hanging below the dash to check the bulb)
I have an RB340 regulator (the one with the B marked terminal rather than A), but the principle is the same for the RB106 which I think you have.
The problem:
The voltage regulator was incorrectly adjusted. The regulator is supposed to be factory set. If you are confident, and have the right tools you may be able to adjust it yourself. Otherwise either get another one or take it to an auto electrician (possibly with generator) and have it set correctly.
How do I know?:
Tested according to the Workshop Manual. Remove the 2 wires on the B terminals, and connect them together. Connect voltmeter between terminal D and earth. Start engine and rev to c. 3000rpm. Voltmeter will rise, should be steady, and should show approx 14.5 volts if working correctly (specs in WSM). Mine was showing 12 volts, meaning (I think) that in effect charging would only occur once battery voltage drops below 12 volts.
Solution:
With engine running, adjust voltage regulator by rotating the cam on top of the coil (might need a special tool, I used pointy-nose pliers). Clockwise to increase voltage and vice versa.
I adjusted mine until it read 14.5 V at 3000 rpm, and hey presto, the charging system now works!
Good luck
Cheers, Dave
Not sure which to adjust , but the manual tells you which. Maybe not so readable here, but take a look:
http://www.rootes1725cc.info/wsm145/wsm_n/n_14.htm
http://www.rootes1725cc.info/wsm145/wsm_n/n_14.htm
mxp01
Platinum Level Sponsor
Gentlemen:
I am happy to report: Victory is at hand.
My son has informed me the car is now charging. He said the adjustment to the cams has led to the correction of the problem: And now the car is recharging.
He is wrapping things up this evening (I'm on business in Columbus, Ohio). He expects to have the car operational by tomorrow.
He did say he still wants to go the alternator route. Cade figures if the voltage regulators are this sensitive that its better to move on to a more reliable system. Besides: We want radio!
Our thanks to everyone who has offered help, especially Tom H for sticking with us. Also, a major tip of the hat to Ozzie Alpine in the Northern Territory for giving us the final piece of the puzzle. Dave: Are you far from Walk About Creek? Do you know Mick Dundee? (Just kidding!)
Anyway, thanks again!
MXP
I am happy to report: Victory is at hand.
My son has informed me the car is now charging. He said the adjustment to the cams has led to the correction of the problem: And now the car is recharging.
He is wrapping things up this evening (I'm on business in Columbus, Ohio). He expects to have the car operational by tomorrow.
He did say he still wants to go the alternator route. Cade figures if the voltage regulators are this sensitive that its better to move on to a more reliable system. Besides: We want radio!
Our thanks to everyone who has offered help, especially Tom H for sticking with us. Also, a major tip of the hat to Ozzie Alpine in the Northern Territory for giving us the final piece of the puzzle. Dave: Are you far from Walk About Creek? Do you know Mick Dundee? (Just kidding!)
Anyway, thanks again!
MXP
Mike and Cade, Great work! Congrats. I was skeptical. You guys seemed pretty lost. But you really stuck with it. I think the toughest part of the Alternator conversion will be the mounting bracket. You may find a SV bracket which some have said fits the mitsubishi Alt without mod. I found I had to add a new hole where the bracket mounts to the engine. But I feel confident you guys can handle the electrics.
ozzie alpine
Bronze Level Sponsor
Great to hear that it worked.
Well, there are plenty of real life Mick Dundee's around here! Yesterday we pulled a 13 foot estuarine crocodile out of our main water supply reservoir
(I'm the Northern Territory's public water supply "catchment manager", but I admit that I was safely at my office desk when they did it!)
Right, I'm off to catch myself a kangaroo for dinner...
cheers
Dave
Well, there are plenty of real life Mick Dundee's around here! Yesterday we pulled a 13 foot estuarine crocodile out of our main water supply reservoir
(I'm the Northern Territory's public water supply "catchment manager", but I admit that I was safely at my office desk when they did it!)Right, I'm off to catch myself a kangaroo for dinner...
cheers
Dave