Chuck Ingram
Donation Time
My 63 GT came with the wooden dash and wooden steering wheel.
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Enjoy.
Were these options available from the factory ?
- Thread starter John Boggis
- Start date
John, I think you are right on the mark. I just get tired of people thinking their modifications are factory correct, the other guys are not. On this side of the pond, it is fine to install a three row radiator, carpeting, $15K paint and chrome work as they are original or "better than original". They take the car to a level that was never seen in the showroom. Well, my engine, transmission, rear end, brakes and air conditioning are all better than original. Their changes are allowed, mine aren't. Why? At least I have a two row radiator!
This attempt to allow modified cars to be classified as standard will do nothing constructive. If they keep on, maybe in 10-15 years my car will be classified as "factory correct".
Bill
John - actually I have them for all but the Series V. The Series I book was spiral bound, but the rest were folded and stapled (called saddle stitching in the print biz). Also had one for the Tiger but sold it.
These all have factory issued part numbers so I don't believe they were only for the U.S. In fact, the illustrations show RHD cars, so I believe these were intended for use across the globe. My examples just happen to be for export, as indicated by the additional "EX" and "USA" included in the numbers. I'd be surprised if these were developed only for the U.S. salesman. Here are the part numbers:
Series I - 7174 / EX/ USA
Series II - 7260 / EX
Series 3 - 7718 / EX
Series IV - 7756 / EX
They show EVERYTHING about the car that the salesman would want to know, with great illustrations and a complete list of the options available.
John Boggis
Donation Time
This is a copy of the UK Concours competion form and judging criteria. with the options on the last page.
Has anyone a copy of your Invasion Judging criteria
Has anyone a copy of your Invasion Judging criteria
Years ago Ian and I talked about formalizing rules for concours judging, then realized we were falling into the same "trap" that other clubs fall into. We wanted our club to steer away from that, typically letting the winners be of the popular choice variety.
Sorry, but we don't have any formal judging rules.
Sorry, but we don't have any formal judging rules.
Scott, I think it would interesting to make up a list of factory options as well as period correct to help the "judges" in their selection process. Also, some common non period correct items, such as clear coat paint. Forty years after the fact, few people know what a showroom Alpine looked like. For instance, carpet has become so common (pretty much out of necessity, but still...) a car with the correct floor mats would probably be downgraded by most.
Don't get me wrong, this would not be a rules sheet, just information.
Bill
Don't get me wrong, this would not be a rules sheet, just information.
Bill
John Boggis
Donation Time
Oh dear.... I may have started something !
65beam
Donation Time
options
as an owner in the sixties ,i can say without a doubt that you could buy anything that was available from rootes and the dealer would install it. not only did they sell rootes items, but there was a long list of aftermarket items such as AMCO items. dealers such as byers in columbus brought in base cars and made a lot of money selling whatever the new owner wanted . if a buyer liked the color of the car and not the interior,they swapped it out with another car.the profit on after market was much higher so why wouldn't they sell it instead . my series 4 has an amco luggage rack that we bought when the car was very low mileage .should i loose points since it was bought at byers ? i also can show you early cars with rootes items that were installed by dealers at the time of purchase that many have said are not right ,but were being installed on late series cars at a much later date.many folks spend a lot of time on the exterior ,but never spend time on the undercarriage ,trunk,or engine compartment. on a popular vote show, i will not vote for a car that doesn't have the hood or trunk open . what are they hiding ? just my two cents.
as an owner in the sixties ,i can say without a doubt that you could buy anything that was available from rootes and the dealer would install it. not only did they sell rootes items, but there was a long list of aftermarket items such as AMCO items. dealers such as byers in columbus brought in base cars and made a lot of money selling whatever the new owner wanted . if a buyer liked the color of the car and not the interior,they swapped it out with another car.the profit on after market was much higher so why wouldn't they sell it instead . my series 4 has an amco luggage rack that we bought when the car was very low mileage .should i loose points since it was bought at byers ? i also can show you early cars with rootes items that were installed by dealers at the time of purchase that many have said are not right ,but were being installed on late series cars at a much later date.many folks spend a lot of time on the exterior ,but never spend time on the undercarriage ,trunk,or engine compartment. on a popular vote show, i will not vote for a car that doesn't have the hood or trunk open . what are they hiding ? just my two cents.
You see why we steered clear of any formal judging....
Pumpkin
Donation Time
Options
Dang you Ken, I like dirty engine bays. It make it look like they have been driven that way and not trailered.
Right now I haven't cleaned the Pumpkin from the last run of over 700 miles, it's sitting in the garage waiting for a water test.
Cheers to all and I do know it's the pits' trying to see what should be and who says what is to be.. Does' that make sence?
Chuck
Dang you Ken, I like dirty engine bays. It make it look like they have been driven that way and not trailered.
Right now I haven't cleaned the Pumpkin from the last run of over 700 miles, it's sitting in the garage waiting for a water test.
Cheers to all and I do know it's the pits' trying to see what should be and who says what is to be.. Does' that make sence?
Chuck
alpine_64
Donation Time
The concourse rules here in AU have almost torn the clubs apart at every national meeting. We had a vey rigourous set of guidelines drawn up for judging.. concourse was to be "factory correct" so only as it could come from the factory.. no period aftermarket stuff.. not even LAT stuff on tigers. Needless to say some very nicely restored ars do not pass as they have period upgrades, wrong hose clamps, modern wires in the loom etc, even if a car has been converted to RHD it loses points as chassis plate states LHD... Not many people want a "factory" car.. which is a shame.. as they are important.. but they are also VERY hard to achieve
65beam
Donation Time
factory car
michael,
it may be easier to build a car to the way the factory did since you do what they did . take the parts out of the box and bolt it on . that requires no detailing of the parts . i detail the masters,slave cylinders,calipers, bolts brake lines, etc. my cars are not the best out there but i try to keep them clean .and our cars have been driven a lot over the years but we don't get to now due to the wife's RA. we traveled in them for many years and for a lot of those years we pulled a pop up camper with the series 4.we had a lot of fun in the past.we will be trailering a car to the invasion this year but only because it has less than a hundred miles since a minor bit of work .i appreciate the fact that folks want a car close to original but as this discussion started , what was original ? that could be argued for many years .i'm sure there are many out there that remember TT's series 4 GT. that car was built with the original owner present at the time of the build and he had everything installed at the factory . i believe that car is somewhere in canada now . it was a neat car ! also keep in mind what had to be done to bring the car to the U.S. british specs were different from specs here . just my two cents .
michael,
it may be easier to build a car to the way the factory did since you do what they did . take the parts out of the box and bolt it on . that requires no detailing of the parts . i detail the masters,slave cylinders,calipers, bolts brake lines, etc. my cars are not the best out there but i try to keep them clean .and our cars have been driven a lot over the years but we don't get to now due to the wife's RA. we traveled in them for many years and for a lot of those years we pulled a pop up camper with the series 4.we had a lot of fun in the past.we will be trailering a car to the invasion this year but only because it has less than a hundred miles since a minor bit of work .i appreciate the fact that folks want a car close to original but as this discussion started , what was original ? that could be argued for many years .i'm sure there are many out there that remember TT's series 4 GT. that car was built with the original owner present at the time of the build and he had everything installed at the factory . i believe that car is somewhere in canada now . it was a neat car ! also keep in mind what had to be done to bring the car to the U.S. british specs were different from specs here . just my two cents .
64beam
Donation Time
Hi,
To follow on from what Michael posted, some of the Australian clubs have decided not to run a true concourse event at all due to lack of interest (but mostly due to the state of their cars compared to other states). At our last Sunbeam national event, there was a 'true' concourse and a non-original concourse which worked very well.
In regards to the originality question, I think it is quite clear cut. If it retains everything that it came with off the assembly line or correct Rootes factory fitted accessories for that model, it can be called 'original'. If it has had a later series engine, etc installed then it cannot be original.
Just my opinion,
Regards, Robin.
To follow on from what Michael posted, some of the Australian clubs have decided not to run a true concourse event at all due to lack of interest (but mostly due to the state of their cars compared to other states). At our last Sunbeam national event, there was a 'true' concourse and a non-original concourse which worked very well.
In regards to the originality question, I think it is quite clear cut. If it retains everything that it came with off the assembly line or correct Rootes factory fitted accessories for that model, it can be called 'original'. If it has had a later series engine, etc installed then it cannot be original.
Just my opinion,
Regards, Robin.
tony perrett
Gold Level Sponsor
I entered my two cars in several Concours some years ago and both were successful in Club Events. However, I found that the all-makes Shows were becoming less fun as people began to take themselves and their cars far too seriously. At one Show I saw a guy with a piece of cloth on a stick polishing the inside of the exhaust pipe and I decided then that our hobby was becoming rather silly.
puff4
Platinum Level Sponsor
Here's another piece of somewhat rare Sunbeam literature related to options and accessories, for those of you that might like it. However, again, I don't see the steering wheel or carpets.
Rootes_Custom_Accessories.PDF
Rootes_Custom_Accessories.PDF
moonstone SIV
Donation Time
Kevin,
Great piece of nostalgia, thanks for sharing. My Series IV has those Sparco reverse lamps fitted under the rear bumper and I've always thought they looked a bit tacky. However, having just read " not only can obstacles be avoided, but also people are warned of your intent", I'll feel a great sense of relief next time I back out of the garage and so will the cat!
Great piece of nostalgia, thanks for sharing. My Series IV has those Sparco reverse lamps fitted under the rear bumper and I've always thought they looked a bit tacky. However, having just read " not only can obstacles be avoided, but also people are warned of your intent", I'll feel a great sense of relief next time I back out of the garage and so will the cat!
John Boggis
Donation Time