timing cover question

[wile coyote]

In the planning stages for the conversion. The way I understand it, the Must II timing cover in needed secondary to spacing concerns for the fan/radiator clearance. If an electric fan is used, would the Ranger timing cover work?

 

[DanR]

Wiley, That is a good question....

The basic difference in the two timing covers is the water pump design.

I have looked at possibly converting a Mutt II water pump to mate to the Ranger timing cover. If I can figure it correctly there may be a way to substitute/go to the Ranger TC.

Otherwise the neck is longer/too long and may interfere with the radiator.

Have you installed the Ranger engine in the Alpine yet? Plan to do so any time soon?

I have an Alpine undergoing some strange mod's at present and would like to try and answer your question a bit better....

What Series Alpine do you have? What type transmission came with the Alpine from Rootes?

What type transmission are you planning on using?

Do you have any conversion components yet?

Any PIC's

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Wiley,

It has been tried before, but the water pump is just too long. The Mustang II water pump has just one bearing and it didn't last very long, so was why the ranger went with a two bearing pump, so the shaft had more support. The Alpine engine compartment is just too short to allow the longer Ranger water pump to be used without moving the radiator down and forward. An electric fan, even if placed in front of the radiator, will not allow the longer pump to be used without moving the radiator. Just simpler to source a 1974-1979 2.8 V6 timing cover and use it.

In the planning stages for the conversion. The way I understand it, the Must II timing cover in needed secondary to spacing concerns for the fan/radiator clearance. If an electric fan is used, would the Ranger timing cover work?

 

[sd_pace]

how long is "not very long"? should we stockpile the pumps?

 

[Alpine 1789]

Hi Wiley,

It has been tried before, but the water pump is just too long.

Jose: This discussion reminded me of this thread: http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10728 Unfortunately Jim's photos are no longer there and Richard/"stuffed red pepper" hasn't been on the forum in years. His last post in this thread makes it sound like the modification worked. Do you know anything about this attempt?

 

[Alpine 1789]

how long is "not very long"? should we stockpile the pumps?

I did, after Jose told me they were prone to failure a long time ago. They are pretty cheap and I think I have 3 or 4 of them 'in stock'. But, after Jose answers the 'how long?' question, which I never thought to ask, maybe I will start buying them again.

 

[DanR]

Jim/Steve, the "not long" might be a valid point.

However is there any analysis available?

I have in the last three years removed and disassembled five of the 2.8 V6 engines ('74-79 Mutt II types) four appeared to have the original water pumps. All on the engines with the original water pumps had in excess of 63 thousand miles, the others in their 70's to 80's, I have two more in storage that are complete engines that I need to check what pumps they have....

I am very interested in potential mod's which would allow the Ranger/Bronco II timing covers to be utilized as substitutes for the Mutt II's. Just in case I (we) run out

Our V6 GuRu Jose has probably the most experience with these engines and his comments should be read carefully for our benefit.... experience is hard to beat.

As usual, Jim, I appreciate your keen memory (storage) of data such as this on the TC's

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Jim,

The Mutt II water pump leaves only about .125" of clearance to the stock mounted radiator, with the Volvo fan on the engine. I can't remember how much longer the Ranger pump is, but it is way much more than .125" longer.

I have never heard of anyone making the Ranger pump work with the radiator setting in it's stock location. I once moved the radiator on a Series II down and forward, the thickness of the modified radiator (about 2"), but it wasn't to accommodate the Ranger pump. I can't remember why we did it.

If anyone wants to attempt to do it, go for it. I guess I should say, that the early pump doesn't last as long, but a lot of that is because folks over tighten the water pump belt, and another reason is if you rev it to the red line often, like I used to when racing.

Jim, if you have three of them, I think you'll never use all of them, because even though they don't last as long as the Ranger pump, they will last under normal use for reasonable people. I must admit I abused them all the time.

 

[wile coyote]

Have a SV. Currently running wit the original engine. I have Jose's kit. Just concerned about finding a Must II engine as those are becoming older. Are the Must II timing covers hard to find? Can't say I've started searching extensively yet. Thank you for the replies.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Jim, if you have three of them, I think you'll never use all of them, because even though they don't last as long as the Ranger pump, they will last under normal use for reasonable people. I must admit I abused them all the time.

Thanks, Jose.

 

[sd_pace]

ok it comes down to how much abuse it will take and the belt tightness ...
good to know
thanks

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Wile,

I have a friend that has the complete front dress (front timing cover, water pump pulley and crank pulley) for the early version, including a rear sump oil pan too, in case you have a later version of the 2.8 V6. If you want his contact info, just send me an email through the forum and I will give you his info. I will give just one caveat. That is if he still has it, since it has been a couple of months since I spoke with him.

Have a SV. Currently running wit the original engine. I have Jose's kit. Just concerned about finding a Must II engine as those are becoming older. Are the Must II timing covers hard to find? Can't say I've started searching extensively yet. Thank you for the replies.

 

[DanR]

Thanks MikeH for the updated discussion, even thought I can't open the PIC's I believe I understand what Redpepper was trying to say.

Stay tuned,

 

[MikeH]

Has anyone look at the possibility of adapting an electric water pump to the R/BII 2.8? Seems that would solve the issue with the water pump snout being too long.

 

[DanR]

Mike, I have not even given that any thought!

Sorry for not having done so, Now that you have made mention, maybe someone has and will step forward...

Do you have any ideas?

DanR

 

[sd_pace]

not a bad idea thinking you could use the bronco timing cover too..

 

[MikeH]

What is the difference between the MII and the R/BII timing covers? It looks like instead of the bypass to the right of the thermostat housing on the MII cover, it is moved to the bottom, the small hose connection. I don't have 2 to compare, but looking at pictures that is what I see. Has anyone tried bolting up a MII waterpump to the R/BII timing cover and using the R/BII thermostat housing?

 

[MikeH]

Found this posted on the Ranger Station.

http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61280


you can put a mustang II water pump on your ranger 2.8 motor if you need too.

 

[DanR]

Mike, The R/B II with the nipple pointing down will most likely hit the crossmember in the Alpine.

I noticed that aspect sometime back after I thought of "drilling & Tapping a hole in the bottom of the Mutt II Bellhousing just to get away from the heater hose connection.

Even made a block plate for the backside of the thermostat housing also in an attempt to get away from the By pass hose.

If you could get a 90 degree elbow to replace the R/BII nipple that sticks downward it might be a good option yet

With my engine mounts I believe I have at extra tiny bit needed. Haven't re-visited that for some time due to all the other work.....

I will take some PIC's of the two timing covers and send them for you this weekend.

 

[MikeH]

Would it be possible to modify the thermostat housing to include the nipple and plug the timing cover?