Tiger ID

[chris]

I'm going to look at a Tiger next week and was hoping some of you Tiger guys could let me know what to look for so I don't end up with an Alger. What is the best tell tail sign that the cars is actually a Tiger and not a good fake? And what number range should I be looking for on the I.D. tag?

Thanks

 

[64beam]

Hi Chris,

There are a number of areas that differ from the Alpine, but the main areas will be the inner guard stiffeners (lower and fatter than the Alpine), the battery box is the access for the electric pump (no box) and the exhaust pipe holes in the cross arm. Also have a look on Norman's Rootes one site as it has some very good information and the car number range you are looking for. Good luck with your search. Here is the Rootes one link:

http://www.rootes1.com/index.asp

Regards, Robin.

 

[Duke]

What is the best tell tail sign that the cars is actually a Tiger and not a good fake?

There is not one. If it is a good fake, you will not be able to tell. It takes a group of trained people working together to determine if a Tiger is real or not. This is what the Tiger Authentication Committee (TAC) does.

A good way to hedge your bet against a fake is to get all of the numbers off of the car and have Norman Miller check his database to find out if the numbers match. (VIN, JAL, transmission, engine, rear diff)

Norman has verified that all of the numbers match on my car and has examined several pictures of areas on the car. He is confident that the car is authentic but it will not be 100% until the car is TACed.

 

[chris]

Thanks, I'll be looking at it Tuesday, I'll let you know what I find.

 

[jmthehermit]

Chris, pm sent but forgot link. Try this: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2180100870100474824gRnlfu?vhost=rides

 

[agmason]

"If it is a good fake, you will not be able to tell. It takes a group of trained people working together to determine if a Tiger is real or not. This is what the Tiger Authentication Committee (TAC) does."

That is propaganda. If you spent a few hours comparing a Alpine with a Tiger you will know most if not all of what TAC looks for in a Tiger. There are restorers who do not belong to TAC that are well versed in the differences between a Alpine and a Tiger based on the work they have done. One failing of TAC, in in my opinion, is they do not publish a list of cars that do not meet their criteria of what constitues a Tiger. Norms web site, to his credit, points out cars that he suspects are fakes.

 

[jumpinjan]

They (to be the west coast community) stand pretty firm on unmolested data plate evidence. If it hasn't been removed, then its on its way to a favorable verdict. If the plate has been removed (typically done here in the east to dip the rusty body) then, they are not sure and they have to keep looking for more evidence. I don't have much experience with TAC, but I hear from other Tiger people (here in the East), that their results are: Yes, its a Tiger; No, its not; And thirdly, we aren't sure what it is.
(Has anyone heard that?)

There are a number of areas that differ from the Alpine, but the main areas will be the inner guard stiffeners (lower and fatter than the Alpine)

I have no idea what they are. The fender/firewall braces? Yes, they are different among many, many other things that I'm learning about.
Jan

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Then there are people like myself who have modified their cars and really don't worry about TAC.
On the Lister the doors and bumpers and headlights are stock.I have it badged Tiger on the front fenders but NEVER EVER will try passing it on as a Tiger.Of course there is always some of those so called experts at car shows and I just let them be when they are explaining the car to someone else and enjoy the chuckle.Then there are the really interested people who have some knowledge and we usually end up having a good talk about cars.
The 62 with the 302.Ford racing roller cam and stage 3 heads etc.is badged Alpine with the sunbeam V8 badge under it.Also has the GT badges as well on the rear fenders with the Rootes badge.
Saying all this I do think verification is a great idea.Yes there may be some hums and hawing but still wouldn't you want to know you have the real Mcoy.
I was'n't too worried about the 66 Tiger as I did have a paper trail . Distance of course meant TAC was really not in the books.Then I just had to go and sell it so I could have the monies for the Lister and the 62
Oh well thats my 50 cents worth.Inflation you know gets you a little less than 1/8th of a gallon for 50 cents.

 

[alpine_64]

Original riverts in the tags are a good starting point, the X frame pass throughs, the spare wheel hold down in the boot, the tabs for the false boot floor and brackets in the boot, thetab for the flase floor on the underside of the boot itself. The inner fender braces and the type of welds, the battery box (should be a clean hole.. the box was NEVER welded on so should be no evidence of it being removed) then there are a few other areas.. one is under the dash on the firewall.. its a very good clue to an alger.

 

[Duke]

One failing of TAC, in in my opinion, is they do not publish a list of cars that do not meet their criteria of what constitues a Tiger.

I believe one reason is liability. With the values of these cars getting high, I could easily see lawsuits from owners of fake cars against the TAC members for "destroying" the value of their car by publishing anything to the general public.

From what I understand from people with a non successfully authenticated car by TAC, they are told that they can not verify that the car is a Tiger and thats it.

 

[sharong]

How far a Tiger owner will go, I bought an Alpine parts car from a Tiger owner. He used the Alpine to restore the Tiger and the data plate from the Alpine was gone, cut completely out. Turns out the painter of the Tiger drilled out the data plate rivets, so the owner cut out the data plate from the Alpine, carefully removed the rivets from the back and then glued them into the Tiger. You couldn’t tell the rivets had been removed from the Tiger even on close examination. He sold the car a few years later, but he did tell the buyer what he did and why. So there are a lot of things that can be done to hide changes to any car if the owner is inventive.
Sharong

 

[chris]

I just thought I'd give you guy an update on the Tiger I was going to look at.

I never got to see it. The guy selling it had a partner and they got into an argument over pricing. To make a long story shot. There was a buyout and these guys are no longer talking.

Thanks for all the information guys. I learned a lot and maybe one day I'll be able to use what I've learned.

 

[Sownman]

.. one is under the dash on the firewall.. its a very good clue to an alger.

I'd love to know what that one is.

BTW, as a newbie and a Tiger shopper I find the whole conversion issue and TAC is nearly enough to drive me to another marque. The idea that there is an authentication committee that keeps the criteria secret but for a fee will let you know if your $40K was well spent or a loss is quite absurd. It was explained to me that some of the criteria for authentication is kept secret to keep the number of fakes lower and easier to spot. Not the right approach, I'm more interested in my personal $40K. Thank God for Norm Miller and his willingness to be helpful.

Steve

 

[Duke]

The idea that there is n authentication committee that keeps the criteria secret but for a fee will let you know if your $40K was well spent or a loss is quite absurd.

Thank God for Norm Miller and his willingness to be helpful.

I do not believe they charge anything to inspect the cars.

I agree...Norman is great; he was a lot of help in my Tiger purchase.

 

[mikephillips]

But I also know of a car they refused to TAC because they said the guy who did the body restoration was too good and since they all knew him realized he had all the secrets. so they refused to do any they found out were his work. The guy who had the car, and had dropped 60k into it, was pretty upset.

 

[Sownman]

But I also know of a car they refused to TAC because they said the guy who did the body restoration was too good and since they all knew him realized he had all the secrets. so they refused to do any they found out were his work. The guy who had the car, and had dropped 60k into it, was pretty upset.

Which guy is that ? As I ask I know the dillema in answering. How do you answer and maybe get sued for damaging the restoration guys livelyhood ?
How do you not answer, because I might spend $60K and end up in the same boat ? I might spend $15K on a perfectly legit Tiger needing restoration and by taking it to this restorer end up with a perfectly legit Tiger worth very little because it is considered non authentic but if I took it to another restorer
I could turn my legit $15K car into a legit $60K car.

In fact I must admit the more I read and consider the less attractive a Tiger becomes. Maybe the way to go is to drop a 302 into an Alpine and leave the Alpine badges on. Better performance, and cheaper.

Steve

 

[alpine_64]

I'd love to know what that one is.

BTW, as a newbie and a Tiger shopper I find the whole conversion issue and TAC is nearly enough to drive me to another marque. The idea that there is an authentication committee that keeps the criteria secret but for a fee will let you know if your $40K was well spent or a loss is quite absurd. It was explained to me that some of the criteria for authentication is kept secret to keep the number of fakes lower and easier to spot. Not the right approach, I'm more interested in my personal $40K. Thank God for Norm Miller and his willingness to be helpful.

Steve

The TAC program is quite good i feel. The reason for not disclosing a few of the pointers is to stop people from making better fakes.. you dont get to know what these are if your car passes TAC.. the only way to know is to become an inspector.. or to know the details of alpines and tigers quite well. I know of this 1 odd detail that i have eluded to, but i know there are more. I only know of this one due to a friend restoring a very original (and rusty) tiger and we noticed the difference between something on it and the alpines.. spoke to a knowledgeable tiger person and they informed us it was one of the clues to an authentic tiger.

I bought my car in the USA over the internet.. i was only going to buy a TAC'ed car as shipping it to AU to find it was a fake would not make me happy.. The TAC gives you a security in your purchase

 

[Sownman]

The TAC program is quite good i feel. The reason for not disclosing a few of the pointers is to stop people from making better fakes.. you dont get to know what these are if your car passes TAC.. the only way to know is to become an inspector.. or to know the details of alpines and tigers quite well. I know of this 1 odd detail that i have eluded to, but i know there are more. I only know of this one due to a friend restoring a very original (and rusty) tiger and we noticed the difference between something on it and the alpines.. spoke to a knowledgeable tiger person and they informed us it was one of the clues to an authentic tiger.

Thats my point on why it's not good, the secrets. I for one don't do restorations, I change water pumps and carbs, thats about as handy as I get.
You can give me detailed charts and photos and I couldn't make a fake Tiger
to save my life. Tiger shopping is hard enough for reasons of scarcity, budget, condition, location. Then on top of that you throw in the issue of Algers with a bunch of people saying "We know the difference but we're not telling you because just maybe you plan to open an Alger factory. It really is ludicrous. I've been shopping for about 2 months now and found one damn nice looking rust bucket. Several obvious basket cases, two fakes, and several high end restores that genuine or not I can't afford. As I said thank God for Norms help.

Steve

 

[Duke]

I've been shopping for about 2 months now and found one damn nice looking rust bucket. Several obvious basket cases, two fakes, and several high end restores that genuine or not I can't afford. As I said thank God for Norms help.

Keep looking. It took me nine months to find my car. Believe it or not, it was in New Hampshire. I always refused to consider a car in the middle of rust country but this car was off the road since 1972 and did not have any rust issues. You never know what you will find. I had to fly out and look at it though to be sure and I had a knowledgeable Tiger guy (who knew what to look for) meet me at the sellers location to give me a thumbs up or down. That on top of Norman verifying all of the numbers were correct.

I also got the car for a great price!

Don't give up.


A foot note - I paid $16K for a Tiger from a collector car dealership in 1995. It turned out to be a fake. I learned my lesson then.

 

[mikephillips]

The guy who did that restoration has retired out of the business so it doesn't really matter who he is since there won't be anymore from him. But I've seen his work on both Tigers and Alpines and you'd be amazed the kind of damage he could repair, or replicate and replace and never know it was done.

Problem I have with TAC is that one of the folks I know has told me there are several cars out west he knows are rebodied that are TAC'ed. A couple he did 20 years or more ago. And they make exceptions to their own rules. TAC is supposed to validate a Jensen Factory produced body according to their own description, nothing else. Yet the Miles and Shelby prototypes are TAC'ed as are the Lister built LeMans cars. none of these are Jensen built and while worthy of certified in some capacity the TAC rules say they shouldn't carry that sticker. Once you start making exceptions, or have people who know certified cars are not what they claim, then the integrity of the whol program is suspect.

I haven't had my car looked at, hasn't interested me since I intend for that to be my estate's problem to worry about. For those who do, go right ahead, but be aware it can't ever be the final answer on any car.