Tech Question

[DanR]

It seems as if most Alpines leak oil/grease from the steering boxes and as a solution to add or fill with a heavy grease (lithium ?).

It seems also that a better way would be to "fix" the culprit ("O-ring") .

The "o-rings" are available from many of the parts suppliers we commonly all upon, as I did and received several in order to repair a couple of my steering boxes.

A question or two, How do you go about removing and replacing the O-ring?

Can't find any "wording" to help?

Thanks for any solutions,

DanR

 

[pruyter]

Hi Dan,

I did this job in the beginning of this year at the Alpine of my brothers. What I did was the following: remove the complete steering box from the car. Then take of the top cover of the steering box followed by taking out the rocker shaft.
Now you have access to the rubber O-ring which you take out with a little screw driver (it won't take more than something less than a minute). Replace the O-ring for a new ring while you use a good smear of blue silicone. Install again the rocker shaft followed by the top cover.
What is following after this I learned from Tim Raymond an Englishman who is posting on this forum too. Place two more O-rings on the outside of the steering box right under the nut which fastens the pitman-arm. This two extra O-rings should be smeared with a good dab of blue silicone. At last a washer is placed on top of the two extra O-rings and finally the nut which fastens the pitman-arm is placed. This job took no more than half an hour.
Afterwards I filled the steering box not with EP90 but with EP 140 classic diff oil. Up til now the steering box is bone dry!

Regards,

Peter

 

[George Coleman]

The lithium grease is still a good way to go and much easier to do!

 

[DanR]

Alpine Steering Box Repairs

Thanks Peter for that good explanation.

And to you too George for reminding me of the "lithium grease" being a good way to go!

What I'm after is trying to rebuild the steering box with the necessary bushings and replacement of the "O-ring (s)" should they be really bad.

There are no "new" steering boxes available that I know of, so a re-build is the next best thing IMHO.

I keep reading the WSM and have these nagging questions that are not coming clear maybe my mind just can't comprehend
To renew (Burman units only)

As one example:
page 16 ROOTES MANUAL WSM - 145 Section J (Steering) ROCKER SHAFT BUSH (Figs. 3 and 4) 2. Remove the washer and ring seal from the outer end of the rocker shaft housing by relieving the "peening" with a suitable scraper.

This "peening" and scraping is a real puzzle after reading "other" writing in the WSM.

Why would that be if you can remove the Rocker Shaft (item 13 Fig 3) as described in para 1 thru 4 page 15 "To dismantle and reassemble?

Is the "peening" to hold the washer (item with no number) under the Ring Seal (item 18) in Fig 3 page 12 ? ( The washer is numbered and identified in Fig 4 as item 26).

A question! Is it as simple as removing/detaching the swing arm (item 19 Fig 3) and proceeding on with Paragraphs 1 thru 4 To dismantle and reassemble on page 15 ?

If you (Peter) removed the rocker shaft from the top of the gear box as described above, without removing the inner shaft that would be very nice indeed....

I have seen very little to none discussed about the steering repairs. Even in the SAOC - ALPINE GUIDE I purchased years ago from our brethren in the UK, has little to say. It is a very worthwhile publication however which I frequently refer to for answers not provided elsewhere

Many thanks Guys for any help in this matter !

.

 

[pruyter]

Hi Dan,

Just like you I had great difficulties in trying to understand the "explanation" of handlings as described in the WSM, so I decided to go for it and use my logical thinking. It is just as I described: when you have taken off the top cover than it is just a matter of pushing the rockershaft upwards and then the shaft is out of the box. Forget all what is written about "peening" and what ever more the WSM is "explaning". It just took me a little bit less than half an hour to change the rubber O-ring in the box. I have seen your wonderful acomplishments in this forum when it regards installing V6 Ford engines in Alpines and I admire your skills, I could never have done it so when I am able to change this d..ned litte O-ring than I am sure you are able to better the time I needed!

Regards,

Peter

 

[65beam]

Thanks Peter for that good explanation.

And to you too George for reminding me of the "lithium grease" being a good way to go!

.

The definition of "GREASE" is a mixture of a fluid lubricant ( oil ) and a thickener dispersed in the oil. Greases do not readily flow so they are used where extended lubrication is required and where oil would not be retained. Does this sound like it could be used in an Alpine steering box ? Maybe that's the reason why so many of us use a grease instead of an oil.

 

[Bill Blue]

The fun part of the WSM is trying to determine (after translating the explanation) is whether or not the explanation is
a) correct, but for a different Series
b) correct but for a prewar Rootes product
c) probably came from a loose page of an MG manual that the night watchman dragged in ten years ago.

Oh yeah, remember there is always the distinct possibly it is letter perfect correct!

Bill

 

[mightyohm]

Bill - So true! I've learned to take the WSM as a suggestion and not gospel. Best to consult all sources, including the forum, before getting in too deep.

 

[loose_electron]

Some things you have to recognize as bad engineering design in the car.

As an EE I see the electrical system as a mess and have endeavored to eliminate all of the original electrical stuff.

As for a single O ring being used as an oils seal around a rotating shaft? That's a weak design and even with a new and shiny O ring in there it will start to leak 90W SAE again pretty quickly.

Many here have wisely suggested the grease as a suitable substitute, and that seems to work well for most. (Including myself)

A proper design here would have never used an O-ring, but instead used something alng the lines of a shaft seal. See below link for more info:

http://www.allsealsinc.com/oil_seals.html

All of that said,

Question: Why did the British never make Television sets?
Answer: They could never figure out a way to make them leak oil.



Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

 

[65beam]

question

British car oil leaks were a standard option for automatic checking of the oil. When it stopped leaking you were either low or out of oil.

 

[DanR]

Peter, Thanks for making it clear about how to remove the shaft!

I pulled a shaft in less than 3 minutes from a steering box I had in a vise.

Easy as pie!

Now for testing the condition of the bushing and replacing if needed.

Thanks much for the confidence and the compliments on my V6 designs

 

[mark mcdonough]

Steering Box

Hi Dan

Hope all is well. I came across your posting here while trying to research options for rebuilding the steering box in my 67 series V. Back in September I attended Brittish Invasion in VT. After the drive home from VT, consisting of a mix of back roads, 2ndardy roades, and quite a bit of highway driving, I decided its time to investgate the steering box. The complete front end suspension and steering components were rebuilt/replaced in June-August of 2016. The front end work tightened up the steering feel quite a bit, but I could tell that there was still way too much play in the wheel from either side of 12 o'clock, and driving at highway speeds seemed to magnify the issue. To make a long story short, my research, including discussion with our friends across the pond, as well as down under, has left me with the conclusion; The only way to restore the steering box given current day options is with a rebuild, and given the selection/configuration of original steering components as shown in the WSM, I already have serious doubts that short of significant metal working (read manufacture a steering column and rocker shaft to close tolerance), a rebuild of the box with currently available parts; ball bearings, bushings, O rings, will not result in anything close to what a more conventionaly designed box would yeild for steering response. I'm curious about your findings, if any, with wear in the steering box itself that could contribute to steering play. I'm also wondering if anyone out there has alternate solutions of a steering box that with perhaps minimal modifications could be adapted to work in an Alpine. Any insight from your project would be greatly appreciated. As always, keep up the great work !! Mark

 

[DanR]

Comments on the Alpine Steering

Mark, It's Great to hear you enjoyed a nice visit and ride back in Sept....

That all means the 1725 engine rebuild (B395 013260) is doing nicely

I was happy with it too!

Now, for the steering, I know of no replacement for the Alpine steering box and or column.

I also do not know of any reason it can't be "put-back-together" and function and normal (like-new).

With Peter's help I finally ventured into the unknown and took the rocker shaft out of a box I had completely cleaned and replace some ball bearings.

During the exercise of taking apart five of the Alpine steering boxes and the columns, I have found "all" have a lot of crud in the inner workings. How it gets in there is somewhat a mystery, unless it does so by way of the upper column, bearing and hub ? Most of these bearing assemblies are just about coming apart for failure due to rust, corrosion, dirt particles etc.,

I have attempted to find a suitable upper column bearing replacement. I found one bearing that "can be made to work" but the inner shaft needs to be removed for machine work, a step I dislike.

However, the removal of the inner shaft allows for the steering assembly to be thoroughly cleaned and the balls be replaced as require. A new "O-ring" and a bushing installed if needed.

Loose motion in the steering even after the front end has been "rebuilt" is a puzzle. The crosslink to me is the most likely culprit due to the design of the rubber bushings. Even with the "new" neoprene type (s) from our Suppliers there is always doubt for me.

In the V6 Conversions where a crosslink was developed that had or made use of tie rod ends seems a good answer for the crosslink!

I too designed a crosslink but without welded bolts for the tie rods to fasten. It is a one piece rod formed under pressure, with bent ends, then threaded for the tie rod ends. Available in my V6 Conversion Components.

Perhaps as a winter project you can remove the steering system and clean and replace as needed. It can be a challenging experience though

REMEMBER TO VOTE in the up coming SAOCA Officer election.

DanR

 

[Bill Blue]

Mark, you do not mention adjusting looseness in the steering box. Have you done that?

 

[mark mcdonough]

Steering Box

Dan, As always, I appreciate your insight into the inner workings of these cars. Indeed, the 1725 performed very nicely for the trip to and from VT. 400 miles, and it didnt miss a beat. Now its time to attend to the steering system so it can keep up with the performance of the rest of the car. As part of what has been a long restoration on this car, I do plan on a removal of the steering shaft/box to investigate the internal parts sometime before the next driving season here in NH. The rebuild of the front suspension and steering components (less steering box) was extensive. Bushings were made from Delrin for the cross link, Upper/lower A arms/hardware rebuilt, new Koni's, new springs, new isolators, sway bar bushings, steering links wheel to wheel, new wheel bearings, rebuilt steering relay, new tires/balanced, aligned per the WSM procedure. The end result was not up to expectation, but OK for most driving. In response to Bill Blue, yes, a basic inspection and adjustment, to the extent possible, was attempted during the front end rebuild. When opened from the top, the box appeared full of relativley clean oil. It was clear at the time though that the only way to inspect its true condition would be a complete removal and disassembly of the parts.

Thanks again for your replies and input. I'm sure I'll be back on the forum once I get the box out of the car. Best Regards, Mark

 

[Bill Blue]

Mark, a visual inspection of the steering box "innards" will reveal nothing about its looseness, which is adjusted by the thickness of the shim pack held between the box and the top plate. Removing shims lowers the top plate, which tightens the clearance between the worm and follower. Measuring the proper clearance is somewhat difficult, especially when the box is installed in the car. I think the easiest approach would be to simply remove the top, remove a shim (only 5 thousandths thick) reassemble and test. If you have removed too much, the steering wheel will be stiff when turned while the wheels are off the floor.

For additional guidance, check out the official procedure in the WSM. I do not think a steering box removal and rebuild would be required as long as the steering is smooth and still has full range of travel.

Bill

 

[DanR]

Bill, All true!

And in Mark's case, He has no leaks!

But, in case of a leak, and if heavier grease (such as the Lithium) does not stop the leakage, pulling the steering might be necessary.

Unless there is a way to remove the lower linkage (pitman arm) so that you could pull the top cap and lift out the Rocker shaft then replace the O-ring?

Anyone tried that?

DanR

 

[65beam]

question

Several years ago Doug at Tiger Auto machined Delrin bushings for the restoration of the series 5 steering / suspension. After a few drives of her car the wife took it back and had Doug remove everything and install original style bushings. Her biggest complaint was the vibration and the feel of every bump and pebble of the road. It wasn't fun and I would never tell anyone to use them unless you auto cross all the time. Urethane bushes are even worse. They have been known to self destruct in 500 miles. The Delrin bushings are with the collection of paper weight parts. If you maintain and service your car one of the things to check is the steering box. These cars are pushing their 60's and are not new. Live with a little leak and other problems. We in the oil business love leaks!

 

[mark mcdonough]

Steering box

Thanks, all good points here. And Dan is correct. Strange as it seems, especially with the apparent wear in the box, it does not leak. My guess is, there is wear in the helix gear/ball bearing interface or, in the rocker shaft somewhere itself. At the time of front end rebuild, an attempt was made to tighten up steering play in the box by removing a shim. With front wheels in the air, turning the wheel through its range of motion seemed to give a slight drag, but there was no difference in play (1-1.5") on either side of 12 o'clock. I appreciate the input from 65Beam also. Having spent some time behind the wheel of sports race cars, and open wheel race cars, Ive gained some familiarity with delrin (and other materials) in various applications. In short, I'm acustomed to driving vehicles whith high spring rates, and very little suspension travel. Having said that, one of the things I would like to test back to back is to change out of the delrin cross link with one that has stock firm rubber. I dont think that the change will directly impact what seems to be wear in the box, but it may dampen some of the vibration coming through the steering system, that could also have an effect on compoents in the box that need to be in close contact with each other.

 

[65beam]

question

Doug at Tiger Auto finished a rebuild of a series 5 cross member for me in October. It will be installed under my red Harrington some day so we decided to keep it stock. We were unable to find any stock bushings for the arms so rather than use the urethane from SS we decided to order a set from VB. They wouldn't fit. They're some kind of flexible black material that can't be installed with a vice without them distorting. They're junk and VB came up with all kinds of fees and shipping cost at my expense if I wanted to return them so they're in the junk bin. We ended up using the only thing SS has. It may be years before it gets set under the car so we'll see how the bushings hold up setting in the garage.