swap or not to swap, that is my question

[bobbo]

The matter of swapping out the 1725 for the 2.8 is back on my mind, as our driving season is coming to a close.
I have the engine, have the 5 speed, have the bell housing, have the new oil pan and pick-up.
A lot of what I read however seems to point to a number of finiky and perhaps costly details that need to be overcome during the swap.
Maybe I'm just starting to think a lot of issues will crop up, causing my own anxiety.
Would love to hear from guys who have put in the 2.8 and the issues they have had to overcome.
Next will be the Kit to do the swap, but I don't think it ends there.
Thanks Bob

 

[sunalp]

Bob,

It really boils down to what you want. For years I thought about a 2.8 swap on my old Series IV, but then
got the Series V (the one pictured by my name) and it wasn't a complete car. Thought it would be perfect
for the V6 conversion. I bought the kit, the engine, the trans (had it rebuilt) and did the tunnel mod . I actually
had the whole thing in the car. Then my good friend bought my old Series IV. He drove it a couple of years
with the 1725, but wanted more. He bought the kit, engine etc and I converted it for him. He likes it as it has more
power than the 4 cylinder, but it comes at a price. The clutch is very stiff and the engine bay is tight to work
in. I liked the conversion, but have since converted my car back to the 1725. I was really missing a stock
Alpine, or should say a more traditional car as they are easy to work on. Maybe it doesn't have the power of the V6
but the car is easier and more pleasurable , at least for me, to drive.

My friend has had a few problems with his car, but nothing that wasn't fixed quickly. He wants me to convert his car to
an automatic trans this winter to make his more enjoyable to drive.

The conversions are not all that hard to do and with people like DanR making some really nice conversion
pieces, they are even easier.

I just prefer mine to be stock.

Cheers!
Steve

 

[Bill Blue]

Bobbo, I know I am not a targeted of the question, but I have "been there, done that" in a way that is way beyond installing the V6 kit. But I really do understand your situation in a way that few V6'ers can. My first car, was purchased in September, 1963 and was a Series II with O.D. and 126 miles on the clock. Not many people can claim that. When that is done, a bond is established that years cannot erode. As a result, I often find myself wondering "If if had it all to do over again, would I?"

I really do not know. I love the power and smoothness of the Duratec, but in my heart, I know it is not truly an Alpine and the 100,000 miles I have put on it pale in comparison to say, the 5,000 mile trip Tom H put on his Chevy rod 1725. If the cool look and power of the 2.8 i not the reason for the swap, I say consider putting the time and money into updating the 1725 internally and install a 5 speed.

Even today, the concept calls to me. You'd probably be surprised how many times I have recommend it.

Bill

 

[Toyanvil]

Remember the V6 is not the only swap. I like my Miata swap, it's still a inline 4 just modern and easy to work on.

 

[DanR]

I have a stock SIV ST OD that will be back on the road with a very nice 1725 rebuild maybe soon. I bought it early 1980, a couple of my kids drove it! I too enjoyed it. With the engine showing some wear and the oil pressure dropping, it was stored in mid '80's.

Afterwards I bought a SV (currently my Blue Boy V6), with all the original running gear. My elder son ran it hard. Parked it in for storage and joined the Army.

I got hooked on the V6 idea from Jose. Bought one of his kits for my "other" SIV BW35 GT, a piece of junk that was given to me. I started the conversion based upon what I could find on the Forum and from lots of communication with guys that had Been-there-done-that

None had thoroughly experienced what I was being confronted with or going thru entirely.

There was no tranny bracket on the market for the conversion of the BW35 Automatic Alpines, atleast not known at the time.

I had to develop my own. After many hours of trial and error, I had one that worked very well. Later scrapping that design I did another which I currently offer either individually or as part of my components for the conversion.

Many hours and lots of money was spent on the next few items I currently offer. Engine mounts for one are as well designed as if by one of the Automotive Companies.

Perhaps the hardest and most difficult was a better design for the headers that would complement the 2.8 V6 in an Alpine. I was convinced that they needed to run straight back along side the engine and transmission similar to most other "street cars"..... I liked the design that was made for the Tiger!

While it is a tight fit, no argument there, it is a near perfect piece of workmanship for converting an Alpine from a 4 cylinder with under 100HP to a more modern vehicle that can be driven any where (Interstate Highways).

A little effort can be exerted to make the V6 an even more comfortable & enjoyable vehicle too! I added an A/C system to my Blue Boy while it was stilled powered by the 1725 engine, it functioned well, however the V6 much better.

With an Electric Power Steering for the Sunbeam Alpine the driving experience is easy on the hands. The telescoping system if so equipped can be retained or added should your Alpine not already equipped.

Most recommendations have been to convert the stock 2 bbl intake on the V6 to a 4 bbl. I followed along that line. I really like the 390 Holley and the OFY 4BBL setup. However, much has been discussed on other options for fueling the V6. Study what is out there and make your own decision.

Very little modification to the structure of the Alpine is required. The Alpine engine mounts are welded to the crossmember, they need to be removed. Replace them with what works best for you. I like mine because they are strong, easily mounted and provide a "fixed" position so the engine and fan/radiator have sufficient clearance.

The only other necessary for fitting the transmission of choice, the late model Mustang T5/Auto C3/4/A4LD being a few choices currently utilized. There is less modification to the transmission tunnel on the 4 speed Alpine if utilizing an internal hyd release bearing and potentially less with the A4LD tranny. The BW35 Alpines have a much wider tunnel and are best candidates for the V6 Conversion.

Lots of opinions out there! I have always suggested you READ! READ! & Read some more before jumping

 

[DanR]

love the power and smoothness of the Duratec

Mr Bill let me drive his Lil' Alpine a few years ago. Never been in as sweet an Alpine as his Durapine. It is indeed powerful and smooth (Quick too!)

He has the talent for that work! I can not do as he has done with the Durapine. I will stick with the Cologne 60 degree engines

Toyanvil has created a fantastic vehicle using an Alpine for starters.... He is to me a perfectionist. In every detail he has mastered what he has created. None any better yet, atleast. His would be a great choice to replicate!

 

[bobbo]

Thanks Steve , Bill. Dan and Toyanvil .
Yep ,lots to consider. The 1725 I drove to SC in 2013 still runs, and runs well right now.
so I may hold up another season. Spend money on the interior etc. to pass the next 5-6 months of winter.
Bob

 

[Paul A]

I have owned and driven stock Series IV and Series V for more than 40 years. A few years back I took the Series V, stock engine with Toyota 5 speed, on a 4800 mile trip from sunny South Dakota, across Minnesota and Wisconsin, then up to Canada and over to the Atlantic Ocean. From there I traveled down the east coast to Richmond, VA, and finally back home through St. Louis and Kansas City. It is reasonable to drive the 4 cylinder on such a trip and have no challenges or breakdowns. I later converted to a 2.8 V6 and have been very pleased with the conversion. You see, I live in South Dakota where speed limits on the interstate are 80mph and most secondary roads are 65mph. People drive fast here and, frankly, I was concerned about getting run over - especially by the semi trucks with drivers using their cell phones. The V6 gives me ample opportunity to drive at 75-80 mph and has greatly reduced my anxiety about running on either interstates or secondary roads. So - if you make the swap or not depends on how you want to use the car, how often you will drive it and where you will drive it. I will say the 2.8 V6 with the DuraSpark ignition has been bulletproof and I have no concerns whatever about driving anywhere in the USA or Canada.

The swap is not difficult and I really had no issues installing a V6 in Ol' Blue or another V6 in my primer painted hot rod. I did all the work myself working in my garage at home. Patience, close observation to detail and asking questions of those already finished with the conversion can be very helpful. My 27 cents worth. Pete

 

[Charles Johns]

Bob, I spent 50 years swapping motors in old cars. Not exactly what you are asking but close. My 1965 Mustang remains a SIX though most swap in an easy swap V8...all bolt-in. The SIX was modified and is still a AS DELIVERED car from 1965. I had lots of fun in highly modified Hot Rods, but none were more fun than my original engine 65 Mustang. Just as much fun and very easy to service. No odd parts to deal with and ANY Ford dealer can fix it if I brake in Podunk Arkansas at two in the morning. A Sunbeam is not a Ford but the idea is the same. Whatever you do give it lots of thought, then go full bore after your goal. Mine is a Ford 2.3 four cylinder with automatic overdrive in place of the 1725 and 4-speed. It is probably a 2 year project...and I am 75. You are never too old or too involved with this hobby/sport to chase a dream.

 

[DanR]

With my components it can easily be done in less than 6 months.

 

[Charles Johns]

Dan, I am not talking about just an engine/trans swap, but a complete rotisserie car rebuild. You have done the hard work with your kit for an engine swap. That alone saves lots of time. I am sinking a 16 gallon tank in the trunk (I build long-haul cars) and using an overdrive automatic. EVERYTHING will be new or rebuilt from the motor-trans, to the interior and trunk, to the glass, seals, latches, lights, etc. plus paint and body work. I built my first Hot Rod in 16 days of vacation. Took a 1934 pickup cab and Pontiac motor and installed them in a 2 x 4 box tubing frame I built, then channeled the body 4" with a small wooden bed to hide the gas tank. When my nephew saw pictures a few years ago he said, "Hey, its a Rat Rod." I told him "NO, its a piece of s#@t!" I would not be seen in such a car today...but I had fun, and it passed state inspection.

 

[bobbo]

someone is getting off on a tangerine. I've done engine swaps before myself ( 57 ford 6 to a 351 ).
My interest in this post was due to a lot of posts / comments with regard clutches and fitment, bell housings matching up, modifications to drive shafts and so on. Dropping a 2.8 and tranny into an Alpine sounds easy, but it certainly has its tough spots.
"Would love to hear from guys who have put in the 2.8 and the issues they have had to overcome." was my request from original post.
Thanks Bobbo

 

[Bill Blue]

Most of the tough issues are avoidable. But don't get me started.

Bill

 

[sunalp]

Bob, I have done a V6 conversion and you are correct. Putting the engine and trans in isn't all that hard to
do. Even the dreaded tunnel widening is pretty straightforward. The hard part is getting everything to work.
Wiring and plumbing isn't that hard and having a driveshaft made ( cost just about the same as modifying
the stock one) wasn't difficult. Ours was a bit of a protracted story and involved a mostly disinterested third
party that was contracted to do this car for my friend, so a lot of work I had to do was re doing things that
had been done incorrectly. We had issues with the clutch, as in the other person used the old clutch thinking
it would be fine. It wasn't so we had to pull the engine, machine the flywheel and put a new clutch in. Mind
you that you would most likely do this anyway and if I can impart any advice I's say chuck most of the old
unknown parts and replace them with new parts. Money well spent as far as aggravation goes. ( I hate doing
things twice, if it can be avoided)

The other issue was the getting the carb to work. We had many issues with the Holley. I know they've been used
with success but we didn't experience that. We had height issues with the stock riser which the Holley needs
in order to work. We ended up with a 38/38 Weber which sits nicely on the manifold and is infinitely tunable.

The clutch, which uses an external pull slave needs the 3/4 master cylinder to make it work. We tried a 7/8 and a
13/16th bore but they weren't able to pull the fork in to disengage the clutch. This leads to a very heavy clutch
pedal. My friend now wants me to convert his car to an automatic so he can enjoy driving his car.

Then there is the exhaust. The disinterested third party had a system put on the car which was total garbage.
Whenever my friend drove the car, it would scrape and bottom out. We've since redone this, and my friend
didn't pay the guy for the first system( He actually gave it back to him in boxes!).

Having said all that, his car is pretty well sorted now. It runs nicely and goes down the road with no issues
other than the stiff clutch pedal.

It's funny because my friend was here for lunch today and we were discussing different engines for the
Alpine. The most recent was a Honda S2000 transplant. When discussing this we both came to the same
conclusion. That by putting this engine in the Alpine, almost everything else needs to be changed and modified
to accomodate the increase in power. You're essentially building an S2000 that looks like an Alpine. We both
felt it much more cost effective to buy an S2000 than to make one! I guess that was the main reason I chose
to convert my Alpine back to (basically) stock.

Sorry for the lengthy post!
Cheers!
Steve

 

[DanR]

I've said it before and I will keep saying it I suppose, the 2.8 V6 seems a natural for the Alpine.

It fits tight but nicely done, it will be a driver for years to come.

I had problems with my Blue Boy V6 from the start in regards to the idle. I could not get it to stay running less than 1250RPM. After determing that the cam was a FULL RACE (zero vacuum at 900-1000RPM). My problem was resolved with Jim's help.

I have not had any recurring problems with the Holley carb
or the distributor or the heating or the T5 or the clutch or the etc., etc...

True my clutch is a bit stronger than some folks my like but I have no problem myself. I contribute that to the Heavy Duty Pressure plate I installed.

My transmission is the T5 1352-238 from the 1997 Mustang 3.8. 1stgear linked to the SV Alpine rear 4:22 is great for my type driving! If you want to race go for the 2:95 1st gear T5's.

If you want to go with an automatic, I believe the FORD A4LD (overdrive) is the way to go. As a matter of fact, my '65 SIV GT BW35 Alpine will have just that hopefully in the near future mated to a "Nice" FORD V 6

I elected to keep the SV rear end because it will handle the 2.8 V6 IMHO. Of course I have the 4bolt hubs/wheels for a better setup.

Initially, I had headers that stuck out the side behind the front wheels creating a problem with routing the exhaust. The routing was a bit of a nightmare for me because I could not figure a way to get the exhaust system up under the Alpine so it would not drag or scrape, the Alpine already being a bit low to the ground. I resolved that after three years of painstaking efforts to design and fabricate headers that would be "straight back" similar to the Tiger! My exhaust system is clearly up under/inside the frame work.

How to mount & where to mount the engine mounts so that there is adequate clearance for the "other" pieces of the puzzle came about slowly for me. I designed 4 different sets before I was satisfied with a functional, dependable & vibration free mount. I scurried through a good many Auto Parts Stores before I found a rubber biscuit Anchor 2424 that was perfect for the 2.8 V6 and my designed engine mounts. Even better, should you ever need replacements, simply call at your local auto parts store.

Extreme efforts were taken to design components that would be simple yet effective! The "bottom" piece of the engine bracket that gets welded to the crossmember has a "stop" or "lip" that ensures adequate clearance for the fan and radiator.

Just read and read some more before you make your decision to swap or not to swap

 

[bobbo]

Thanks gentlemen. I appreciate all comments.
Pulling the 1725 and transmission later this fall in order to clean up the engine bay and get ready for what lies ahead.
I'll keep my stick on the ice for now.
Bobbo

 

[todd reid]

It is basically a straight forward task. There are lots of details, but just take them one at a time. I did it years ago before there was a kit. A great guy in TE/AE named Steve Towle was my mentor. His basic premise was, "we are not going to tell your Alpine that we changed the engine - it will never know".

I hung the Alpine Alternator on the V6, drilled and tapped the V6 to accept the Alpine Temp sender, and recalibrated the Alpine tachometer - the rest of the electrical system remains as is. I used a '74 Capri as my donor car, which has Bosch Electrics (instead of Motorcraft). One thing I did run into was the Bosch starter solenoid would not release once activated - the solution was to use the Alpine solenoid to trigger the Bosch solenoid.

Add an electric fuel pump to the Alpine fuel system, and the fuel system is done. The brake system works as is. Cooling mods have already been discussed. Several people offer headers (wish those were around when I was converting!), after that the exhaust is straight forward. The supply tube to the Alpine oil pressure gauge is a smaller diameter that the Ford supply tube - splice them together.

This website is a great resource. Keep us posted on your progress!

 

[DanR]

A great guy in TE/AE named Steve Towle was my mentor. His basic premise was, "we are not going to tell your Alpine that we changed the engine - it will never know".

Todd, I like that attitude!

 

[Charles Johns]

Memories, memories, memories...you guys bring back memories if previous eng/trans swaps. Until you do one you do not understand the problems involved. Oopps, the carb is not level, the starter hits the frame, the left exhaust is too close to the steering box, I remember this bracket...but where does it go? Little things like where to put the starter solenoid, or getting the fan close enough to the radiator, and is the trans output angle too steep? I am designing motor mounts and it looks like the front frame-horns may be a little thin. I see pictures that anchor mounts there so I assume they are okay for a mounting surface. I will try to put them on the front crossmember like originals first. Just requires some thought to align mounts with mounting holes on the block.

 

[Bill Blue]

Or, how about, "I know I made a bracket for that, where the $%#@! is it?" "Why didn't I notice the radiator hose has to go right where I placed the alternator?" " I made a bracket for this minimal 60 amp alternator because that was what I could find that would fit the space. Now I discover I will have to use an electric fan that pulls nearly 30 amps. CRAP CRAP CRAP" "If I run the brake line here, will the exhaust boil the fluid?" "If I tilt the engine enough for the intake manifold to clear the M/C, will the gear shifter clear?" (It will, but the front U-joint will not because tilting the engine moves it off center, which mean the engine will no longer be parallel with the body and there ain't no free lunch)

Got at least a hundred more, most of which, thankfully, I have forgotten.

Bill