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Strombergs - need help
- Thread starter themole
- Start date
Tullamore
Donation Time
Have you checked the diaphragms under the dashpot covers to make sure they are not torn or thin?
The correct way to test them is to lift the piston up and the engine should rise in RPM for a second and then slow down to a lower RPM than it was before you lifted the pison. If it does not you have a leak or need to adjust the mixture with your Stromberg tool.
The correct way to test them is to lift the piston up and the engine should rise in RPM for a second and then slow down to a lower RPM than it was before you lifted the pison. If it does not you have a leak or need to adjust the mixture with your Stromberg tool.
themole
Donation Time
thanks for the quick response
If I lift the left piston the rev's go up and down like you describe. Not a huge response but a slight response.
I can also lift the piston to the top and let it lower itself with out much effect on the revs.
If I raise the right piston more than a half an inch the car stalls.
The diaphrams are about 2 month old. The right side retains oil better than the left but after 2 months they both still had oil.
I replaced the throttle shafts about 2 years ago.
Doug
If I lift the left piston the rev's go up and down like you describe. Not a huge response but a slight response.
I can also lift the piston to the top and let it lower itself with out much effect on the revs.
If I raise the right piston more than a half an inch the car stalls.
The diaphrams are about 2 month old. The right side retains oil better than the left but after 2 months they both still had oil.
I replaced the throttle shafts about 2 years ago.
Doug
themole
Donation Time
making things worse or maybe better
The diaphrams seem to be slotted nicely.
The pistons are oddly mismatched.
The one from the right is lighter than that from the left by half.
Since the right side would stall if I raised the piston I decided to switch the two pistons to see if I get the same effect switched...which I did not. The right still stalls and the left does not. So there is an issue elsewhere.
However, now if I put a rag over either side the revs will now go up for both.
Now unfortunately I can hardly idle the car and have the idle screwed in way too much just to keep the car running.
Another clue, when I rev the engine a lot the lighter piston will rise at least a 1/4 inch higher than the heavier piston.
I am hoping there are clues here.
Doug
The diaphrams seem to be slotted nicely.
The pistons are oddly mismatched.
The one from the right is lighter than that from the left by half.
Since the right side would stall if I raised the piston I decided to switch the two pistons to see if I get the same effect switched...which I did not. The right still stalls and the left does not. So there is an issue elsewhere.
However, now if I put a rag over either side the revs will now go up for both.
Now unfortunately I can hardly idle the car and have the idle screwed in way too much just to keep the car running.
Another clue, when I rev the engine a lot the lighter piston will rise at least a 1/4 inch higher than the heavier piston.
I am hoping there are clues here.
Doug
themole
Donation Time
ok - more changes
I found among my many spares a matching light weight piston.
Now they both go up and down at the same rate.
The rear still will stall the engine if I raise the piston.
If I put a cloth over the front then the revs go up - not so much with the rear.
YES it does work better with the choke pulled. This I always associate with a timing issue. Currently I cannot seem to find the magic timing spot. It never seems to be advanced enough then its too much. The vacuum advance does seem to work - but correctly I don't know.
If by valves do you mean the intake and exhaust? That is a good idea. I did once have a valve partly open - I shall go at that idea - soon.
After I replaced the piston I can now idle the car.
Not much is making sense.
Doug
I found among my many spares a matching light weight piston.
Now they both go up and down at the same rate.
The rear still will stall the engine if I raise the piston.
If I put a cloth over the front then the revs go up - not so much with the rear.
YES it does work better with the choke pulled. This I always associate with a timing issue. Currently I cannot seem to find the magic timing spot. It never seems to be advanced enough then its too much. The vacuum advance does seem to work - but correctly I don't know.
If by valves do you mean the intake and exhaust? That is a good idea. I did once have a valve partly open - I shall go at that idea - soon.
After I replaced the piston I can now idle the car.
Not much is making sense.
Doug
ozzie alpine
Bronze Level Sponsor
Are you sure there is fuel getting through the left carb?
Perhaps its a blocked jet or float valve, and the car is trying to run on just one carb?
I don't have an alpine stromberg manifold in front of me, but if it allows a cross-connection between all ports and the carbs than it would be possible for it to run (badly) even if only one carb was operating.
If you can lift the piston and it makes little difference then there is no fuel getting through. In this case you would just get air through the left carb, weakening the overall mixture, which you are compensating for on the other carb by pulling the choke.
I would check whether there is fuel in the float chamber.
Perhaps its a blocked jet or float valve, and the car is trying to run on just one carb?
I don't have an alpine stromberg manifold in front of me, but if it allows a cross-connection between all ports and the carbs than it would be possible for it to run (badly) even if only one carb was operating.
If you can lift the piston and it makes little difference then there is no fuel getting through. In this case you would just get air through the left carb, weakening the overall mixture, which you are compensating for on the other carb by pulling the choke.
I would check whether there is fuel in the float chamber.
sunbeam74
Silver Level Sponsor
Doug,
If you have the mixture adjustment apart again check the jet on each side to see if they are OK. There was a period, maybe mid-90's, where somebody was producing rebuild kits and the jets had the flange pressed on versus a solid piece of brass. I have seen the flange separate and create strange responses since no matter how much adjustment there is no mixture change and the carbs just ran terrible. I doubt this is your problem but it is worth looking at it if you have the lower part of the carb apart.
With that said... if you have your carb apart.... I like to make sure my carbs are perfectly balanced, mixture and air flow, by measuring with dial or electronic calipers.
1) Take a set of calipers (for measuring) and measure from the rear face of the carb body to the edge of each throttle plate AND verify that each throttle plate is the same depth. If not, loosen the couplers joining the two throttle shafts and adjust the idle screw so each throttle plate is the same depth. (don't forget to check to make sure your throttle plates are not loose and shifting around... )
This will ensure that each side is exact in flow balance.
2) Then, with the top of the carbs and air piston removed measure the height of the jet in relation to each carb throat. Just look down where the needle passes into the jet. Measure the depth from that jet to the edge.
This will ensure that each jet is set equally.
(assuming your right and left needles are the same and are centered. Also, check the piston springs, too)
====================
By doing these two things you KNOW your carb settings are almost perfectly balanced side to side. IF you adjust any screw, mixture or idle speed, then you must adjust the other side equally. No need to listen to each side to balance them. You may have to do some minor mixture adjustment - but do it to both sides equally.
At least this eliminates errors in initial setup and as you go through this process you will possibly find any other mechanical problem that might be causing your problem.
If you have the mixture adjustment apart again check the jet on each side to see if they are OK. There was a period, maybe mid-90's, where somebody was producing rebuild kits and the jets had the flange pressed on versus a solid piece of brass. I have seen the flange separate and create strange responses since no matter how much adjustment there is no mixture change and the carbs just ran terrible. I doubt this is your problem but it is worth looking at it if you have the lower part of the carb apart.
With that said... if you have your carb apart.... I like to make sure my carbs are perfectly balanced, mixture and air flow, by measuring with dial or electronic calipers.
1) Take a set of calipers (for measuring) and measure from the rear face of the carb body to the edge of each throttle plate AND verify that each throttle plate is the same depth. If not, loosen the couplers joining the two throttle shafts and adjust the idle screw so each throttle plate is the same depth. (don't forget to check to make sure your throttle plates are not loose and shifting around... )
This will ensure that each side is exact in flow balance.
2) Then, with the top of the carbs and air piston removed measure the height of the jet in relation to each carb throat. Just look down where the needle passes into the jet. Measure the depth from that jet to the edge.
This will ensure that each jet is set equally.
(assuming your right and left needles are the same and are centered. Also, check the piston springs, too)
====================
By doing these two things you KNOW your carb settings are almost perfectly balanced side to side. IF you adjust any screw, mixture or idle speed, then you must adjust the other side equally. No need to listen to each side to balance them. You may have to do some minor mixture adjustment - but do it to both sides equally.
At least this eliminates errors in initial setup and as you go through this process you will possibly find any other mechanical problem that might be causing your problem.
RootesRooter
Donation Time
Since a PO apparently played a bad game of mix 'n match with your air pistons, be sure to check the springs. They should be an identical color.
themole
Donation Time
5.5 turns out
I have yet to take the carbs off the intake. When I put them on I did follow the book. That was 4 years ago.
Presently, it takes 5 1/2 turns out to get a smooth acceleration. This has to be wrong. I can smell raw gas.
I ensured the manufold gasket has no leaks.
If I set the jets to 4 turns I can barely accelerate except if I quickly pull the choke out and push it in as I change gears and stomp the pedal. If I added an accelerator pump I could ease that trouble.
At the moment I feel I have done some good work to the carbs and without measuring they sound balanced.
My next step will be to try and get my timing set with a new 'out of the spares box' distributor. This spare distributor oddly enough appears exact in every way except its throat is not cracked. However. I cannot start the car once I place it. I have replaced everything on it too. Odd.
Thanks for helping
I am slowing implementing every single suggestion.
Doug
I have yet to take the carbs off the intake. When I put them on I did follow the book. That was 4 years ago.
Presently, it takes 5 1/2 turns out to get a smooth acceleration. This has to be wrong. I can smell raw gas.
I ensured the manufold gasket has no leaks.
If I set the jets to 4 turns I can barely accelerate except if I quickly pull the choke out and push it in as I change gears and stomp the pedal. If I added an accelerator pump I could ease that trouble.
At the moment I feel I have done some good work to the carbs and without measuring they sound balanced.
My next step will be to try and get my timing set with a new 'out of the spares box' distributor. This spare distributor oddly enough appears exact in every way except its throat is not cracked. However. I cannot start the car once I place it. I have replaced everything on it too. Odd.
Thanks for helping
I am slowing implementing every single suggestion.
Doug
RootesRooter
Donation Time
How did you manage to install new throttle shafts two years ago with the carbs still mounted on the intake manifold?
I hate to say this, but I think you need to find someone in your area with some Stromberg expertise to actually examine the carbs. I don't think we could collectively walk you thru getting your carbs properly sorted out even with 10 pages of posts.
You also need to invest in a good manual. The factory Rootes 1725cc Light Car manual is best, but the Autopress manual for Series VI Minx (and other 1725cc cars) covers Series V Alpines very well, including carbs. They usually go for less than $10+pp on eBay. There was one there two days ago.
Dick Sanders
Kent, WA
I hate to say this, but I think you need to find someone in your area with some Stromberg expertise to actually examine the carbs. I don't think we could collectively walk you thru getting your carbs properly sorted out even with 10 pages of posts.
You also need to invest in a good manual. The factory Rootes 1725cc Light Car manual is best, but the Autopress manual for Series VI Minx (and other 1725cc cars) covers Series V Alpines very well, including carbs. They usually go for less than $10+pp on eBay. There was one there two days ago.
Dick Sanders
Kent, WA
sunbeam74
Silver Level Sponsor
Doug,
Definitely, a good manual will help. I think you mentioned you had one. Attached are a few images of how you might want to set the settings on your carbs if you had them off the manifold. I think you can buy a cheap plastic dial caliper at Autozone for $10. You don't even need to be able to read the dial... just make sure the pointer is in the exact same place on both carbs
I usually start with the mixture screwed out 3 and a half turns.
Measure the depth of the jet on both both carbs. Make sure that they both are the exact same height. Be precise. Once this is done the carbs are perfectly matched mixtures to each other*
Then measure your throttle plate depth. The manual has you use a drill bit... as long as I have the dial calipers out I think it is easier to measure. Just make sure each side is exactly the same depth. Try opening the throttle plates a couple of times and recheck your depths. BTW< you don't have to separate the carbs from each other but just loosen the throttle shaft coupler.
Again, be precise... your carbs will be perfectly match for flow*
Now, I can't say this enough... NEVER EVER adjust one side without making an identical adjustment to the other. EVER.
You may have to do mixture tunning and idle speed adjustment BUT adjust both sides.
Again, it sounds like you have a hodge podge of parts. Check to make sure your jet assembly looks like this. (The jet, on some of those cheap parts, will have the flange separate. You'd never get this running properly. I like to unscrew the mixture screw an visually check the jet is moving up and down the barrel)
Also, check your diaphragms to make sure the raised bumps in the diaphragm are in the notches in Both the piston and the carb body. I have seen people get the raised ridge seated and unaware they didn't get the piston orientation correct because they failed to get the bump in the notch.
As Dick mentioned check to make sure the piston springs are matched.
Yes, carb rebuilding instructions may be too much for the board!
Steve
* note, this assumes you don't have parts that are worn or mismatched - or float issues. If the carbs don't run well with these setting established then most likely your floats/needles need adjustment or you have an air leak.
Definitely, a good manual will help. I think you mentioned you had one. Attached are a few images of how you might want to set the settings on your carbs if you had them off the manifold. I think you can buy a cheap plastic dial caliper at Autozone for $10. You don't even need to be able to read the dial... just make sure the pointer is in the exact same place on both carbs
I usually start with the mixture screwed out 3 and a half turns.
Measure the depth of the jet on both both carbs. Make sure that they both are the exact same height. Be precise. Once this is done the carbs are perfectly matched mixtures to each other*
Then measure your throttle plate depth. The manual has you use a drill bit... as long as I have the dial calipers out I think it is easier to measure. Just make sure each side is exactly the same depth. Try opening the throttle plates a couple of times and recheck your depths. BTW< you don't have to separate the carbs from each other but just loosen the throttle shaft coupler.
Again, be precise... your carbs will be perfectly match for flow*
Now, I can't say this enough... NEVER EVER adjust one side without making an identical adjustment to the other. EVER.
You may have to do mixture tunning and idle speed adjustment BUT adjust both sides.
Again, it sounds like you have a hodge podge of parts. Check to make sure your jet assembly looks like this. (The jet, on some of those cheap parts, will have the flange separate. You'd never get this running properly. I like to unscrew the mixture screw an visually check the jet is moving up and down the barrel)
Also, check your diaphragms to make sure the raised bumps in the diaphragm are in the notches in Both the piston and the carb body. I have seen people get the raised ridge seated and unaware they didn't get the piston orientation correct because they failed to get the bump in the notch.
As Dick mentioned check to make sure the piston springs are matched.
Yes, carb rebuilding instructions may be too much for the board!
Steve
* note, this assumes you don't have parts that are worn or mismatched - or float issues. If the carbs don't run well with these setting established then most likely your floats/needles need adjustment or you have an air leak.
themole
Donation Time
air leak
I am leaning towards an air leak issue which may or may not account for excessive hydrocarbons on idle but maybe it would explain why pulling the choke helps with accelleration.
I do believe my head gasket is leaking. I was asked about this earlier as a possible source but I had no symptoms, now I do. Mostly steam - not a lot but getting progressively worse.
Who sells the most reliable head gasket?
Has any one bought the reconditioned strombergs from Sunbeam Spares?
Reconditioned Strombergs (exchange) £ 77.00
I would like a new-to-me set.
I also found that the throat clamp that keeps the distributor from moving does not quite hold the distributor from moving. There seems to be a taper wearing into place and the neck is somewhat cracked. Any solutions here?
doug
sv5
I am leaning towards an air leak issue which may or may not account for excessive hydrocarbons on idle but maybe it would explain why pulling the choke helps with accelleration.
I do believe my head gasket is leaking. I was asked about this earlier as a possible source but I had no symptoms, now I do. Mostly steam - not a lot but getting progressively worse.
Who sells the most reliable head gasket?
Has any one bought the reconditioned strombergs from Sunbeam Spares?
Reconditioned Strombergs (exchange) £ 77.00
I would like a new-to-me set.
I also found that the throat clamp that keeps the distributor from moving does not quite hold the distributor from moving. There seems to be a taper wearing into place and the neck is somewhat cracked. Any solutions here?
doug
sv5
RootesRacer
Donation Time
someone overtightened the dizzy clamp.
You will have to replace the lower end of the dizzy, it will never stay put if it cant be tightened down on.
You will have to replace the lower end of the dizzy, it will never stay put if it cant be tightened down on.