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Spark Plugs

Derek

Donation Time
Here's one for the ingnition guru's in the group. I am sorting a 67 SV out and have some "pinking" Here's the set up; 1725, Weber 32/36 DGV Pierce Manifold, Lucas Sport Coil (internal resistor) Crane X700 ignition, Bosch Plugs and wires, 92 octane fuel. I've played with the timing and gotten rid of most of the pinking but not all. Here's the question, would a projeted tip plug help? is there room in the cylinder ? has anyone out there tried it ? You racers must have.

Thanks Derek
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Derek,

HTH, The 1725 WSM specifies Champion N9Y plugs for the 1725 alloy head engine which is an extended tip plug.

You should check the heat range for your Bosch plugs against the Champion N9Y plugs. I will guess that your Bosch plugs are a much hotter running plug. If you try extended tip plugs, try to find a heat range between your Bosch plug and the Champion.

The WSM also specifies premium fuel with 8.4 and 9.2 compression engines ( both iron and alloy heads ).

Good luck,
 

Derek

Donation Time
Yes, here's what I know , "and it aint much!"
champion codes;
y=standard projected (2.5mm seems to be standard)
E=.290 core nose projection (cnp)
H=.030 cnp
M=Projected core nose (don't know how much)

The NGK equiv. of the N9Y is th BP6ES, this is a mid heat range plug with a "standard" 2.5mm projection

The Bosch that I am running is the same, mid range/2.5mm it a WR7DC

I think I my have found a can of worms...

Derek
 

RootesRich

Donation Time
Let's take a step back for a minute before we point the finger at the spark plugs...

Do you have excessive carbon buildup in the combustion chamber of have you noticed your temp guage spiking when the engine pings?

What is your timing set at?




Yes, here's what I know , "and it aint much!"
champion codes;
y=standard projected (2.5mm seems to be standard)
E=.290 core nose projection (cnp)
H=.030 cnp
M=Projected core nose (don't know how much)

The NGK equiv. of the N9Y is th BP6ES, this is a mid heat range plug with a "standard" 2.5mm projection

The Bosch that I am running is the same, mid range/2.5mm it a WR7DC

I think I my have found a can of worms...

Derek
 

Derek

Donation Time
I have not torn the motor apart so I can't say for certain about the carbon, but the plugs are pretty clean. the timing is at WSM spec 8 deg. I've gone forward and backward until the pinging is worse or the car just wont run.. As I said its not real bad so I think I am after somthing small. Temps are steady. The whole point of the projected tip plug is to move the flame front closer to the piston crown and to cut down or eliminate premature detonation of the charge. If the cylinder is full of carbon it may act like a glow plug and cause run on, this I do not have. Fishing anyone?

This forum is the best, I've only been a Sundeam owner for 6 months and the info and support from the group has made a huge difference in how fast I have been able to get the car to the state it is on now..

Thanks Derek
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Apols to older (in time, not age) forum members, but you might check with your state regulations to see if you can run leaded gas. Some states allow this under a "limited use, antiques and classics" designation, for cars over 40 or so years (varies) that were designed for high-octane leaded.

I run Matilda (my 1967 SV) on AVGAS, which is 100 octane (used to be 105) low-lead, which eliminated pinging (detonation) and is kinder on the valve seats. The line man at the local municipal airport where I fly pumps it into 5-gal metal cans (federal law doesn't allow it to be put directly into an automobile, and only metal cans are allowed as they must be bonded to the tanker the same as the planes are when refuelling to prevent sparks).

With this juice I can run the maximum advance. It also helps in the my engine is overbored +.060, which raised the already relatively hig C.R. Of course, at $5.50 a gallon it doesn't pay to think about the cost.
 

64beam

Donation Time
Hi Derek,

If you have tried to reset your engine timing with no joy, then I am thinking that your fuel may be the issue as Nick suggested. Similarly, with modern engines using a lower octane fuel. You may have picked up some bad fuel. I have used equivalent spark plugs to the Champion plugs (some even hotter) in my Alpine with no adverse effects.

Regards, Robin.
 

V_Mad

Donation Time
If your head has been skimmed, you may have a higher compression ratio which may help cause pinking. Is the distributor advance working correctly; have you put it on a stroble lamp? Do you have vacuum advance/retard?
 

RootesRich

Donation Time
If the cylinder is full of carbon it may act like a glow plug and cause run on, this I do not have. Fishing anyone?

If the cylinder and piston is full of carbon it reduces the size of the chamber increasing compression and retaining excessive heat which can cause pinging and is why I asked.

If it were me, I would verify the timing is in spec throughout the RPM range, mix in fresh gas with a bottle of fuel system cleaner, and run NGK BP6ES plugs (which is what I run). I have had a problem with Bosch platinum plugs when I 1st built my Holbay motor and was experimenting.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Rich,

You mentioned carbon build up as possible cause of pinging. It is true, and it made me remember an old mechanic's trick that I saw used at a dealership once. They had a Lincoln come in that had a pretty loud knock as it ran. One old mechanic that worked there, diagnosed it as carbon that had come loose and was trapped between the piston top and the squish area on the head. he took a box of "Uncle Ben's" instant rice, and as he reved the engine he slowly poured the contents down the carburetor. The hard rice kernels beat around in the cylinder and cleaned out the carbon. After just a short time of doing this, the knocking noise disappeared. It was amazing! I would never have thought of doing that to get rid of carbon build up.

Jose :)


If the cylinder and piston is full of carbon it reduces the size of the chamber increasing compression and retaining excessive heat which can cause pinging and is why I asked.

If it were me, I would verify the timing is in spec throughout the RPM range, mix in fresh gas with a bottle of fuel system cleaner, and run NGK BP6ES plugs (which is what I run). I have had a problem with Bosch platinum plugs when I 1st built my Holbay motor and was experimenting.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Crikey, Jose; I would hesitate to put stuff in the engine that might get caught between valves and seats!!

Derek: One possibility that occurred to me: Are you running ported (off carburetter) vacuum advance or manifold advance? If manifold, you will get the maximum advance when the manifold vacuum is highest - idling and coasting in gear - and the least under acceleration when it is low or close to zero. Ported is the way to go, for several reasons.
 
L

Lee DeRamus saoca0404

Jose,
THIS GIVES ANOTHER MEANING TO THE TERM "RICE BURNER"
On the same note, I have seen other cures like the the use of rice. At a Chevrolet dealership I have seen a mechanic friend drizzle water into the carb to get the carbon out. Also saw the same man open just the oxygen valve on a cutting torch and let a very small ammount of oxygen into the carb. The result in both cases, very black smoke out of the exaust, then a smooth running engine. I have never been brave enough to try these. I know that oxygen and oil don't mix. The result is an explosion. Possibly the oxygen in the water burned the carbon out. I have read that planes used water injection to boost power, especially on take off.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Jose,
THIS GIVES ANOTHER MEANING TO THE TERM "RICE BURNER"
On the same note, I have seen other cures like the the use of rice. At a Chevrolet dealership I have seen a mechanic friend drizzle water into the carb to get the carbon out. Also saw the same man open just the oxygen valve on a cutting torch and let a very small ammount of oxygen into the carb. The result in both cases, very black smoke out of the exaust, then a smooth running engine. I have never been brave enough to try these. I know that oxygen and oil don't mix. The result is an explosion. Possibly the oxygen in the water burned the carbon out. I have read that planes used water injection to boost power, especially on take off.


Water injection in high enough qty works wonders on keeping the combustion chambers clean and free of carbon. Ive seen many engines taken apart after running for long periods on water injection, and they usually come apart looking factory new internally.

I also have seen some very abused turbo engines that after a major head gasket failure, the piston, valves and combustion chamber that ingested the hot coolant came out looking very clean, while the other cyls were very carbon fouled.

As for an engine making more power with water injection?
No.
Water injection reduces the VE of the engine, and while it gives added knock tolerance, will reduce the power output of the engine a small bit.
Gasoline of a higher octane will yield more HP at a given timing figure all things the same.
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jose,
THIS GIVES ANOTHER MEANING TO THE TERM "RICE BURNER"
On the same note, I have seen other cures like the the use of rice. At a Chevrolet dealership I have seen a mechanic friend drizzle water into the carb to get the carbon out. Also saw the same man open just the oxygen valve on a cutting torch and let a very small ammount of oxygen into the carb. The result in both cases, very black smoke out of the exaust, then a smooth running engine. I have never been brave enough to try these. I know that oxygen and oil don't mix. The result is an explosion. Possibly the oxygen in the water burned the carbon out. I have read that planes used water injection to boost power, especially on take off.

Lee,


Water should give an effect similar to steam cleaning ( remember all the comments made about clean pistons when a head gasket lets go ).

IIRC, water - alcohol injection was used for charge cooling to allow greater levels of boost for more power. If I am wrong the resident historian should set the record straight.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Don: You are right. Water/methanol injection was used extensively, especially by the Germans, in WWII to allow extra boost without destructive detonation. The allies had 100- and later 150-octane (believe it or not) gasoline, courtesy of the Ethyl Corp., and could run boost pressures impossible in German engines, who were mostly restricted to 87 octane (although some benzene blends were higher).

A year before the Battle of Britain, British aero engine fuel stocks were of the same 87 octane. Arrangements were made with Standard Oil of Ohio (Esso) to supply the new 100-octane, and the 87-octane stocks were replaced with this new gas, which allowed the Merlin's 6 - 7 lb. boost to be immediately raised to 12 lb. At the outbreak of war the Neutrality Act forbade any more supplies until an "arrangement" was reached which allowed the prohibiton to be evaded. Together with the constant-speed airscrew (replacing the 2-blade fixed-pitch one), this resulted in a significant increase in maximum speed and climb rate.

The only answer by Daimler-Benz and BMW was water/methanol injection, which could only be used for short "emergency overboost" spurts, and by steadily increasing the volume of their engines. For example, the BMW engine of the Fw190, at 45 litres, was little more powerful than the Merlin at 27.

The purpose of the methanol was to prevent freezing of the water at high altitude. A slight extra HP increase was achieved from the steam generated by the water.

Water-injection has historically been used in aviation to increase jet engine thrust and to reduce the emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx). The effect is to reduce specific fuel consumption (SFC), NOx emissions, and engine hot-section temperatures while maintaining constant thrust. The subsequent reduction in hot-section temperatures increases engine life and reduces maintenance costs. So the next time the pilot throttles the turbines of the B 767 you're sitting in, some of the push you feel in your back is coming from tap water.
 
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