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Setting Camber

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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I've noticed the front end of my car appeared to be all wrong, lots of negative camber and toe. Got out the carpenter's square, it has 1/2" negative camber, measured at the sidewall bulge. Don't know how much that is, other than it is wrong. So I decided to try to get it within a more acceptable range, sort of like slightly positive. On the driver's side, I was able to reduce it to about 1/4" negative. That's with no shims. On the passenger's side, all the shims were already removed! When I had it aligned, the guy simply evened them up.

Everything looks fine. What in the world is wrong? This is a Series V. Is it possible someone has mixed and (mis)matched parts?
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Bill
To get to positive camber you will need the shims.Positive camber of course is the wheel leaning in.How did you change camber without moving shims is a mystery.The shims in back of the A arm need to be removed and replaced in front of the A arm to get to positive camber.How many is trial and error till right
As to no shims on the other side something is wrong.Are you sure that the shims on the back side of the A arm are missing or is it just that there are no shims in front of the A arm showing.You have to get your head right in there to see.This is important to determine.If they are there then it is simple to remove some as needed and then replace in front of the A arm
If there is no shims I think your crossmember may at fault due to old age or it was once upon a time banged.
Negative toe is not neccessarily bad.At the most 1/16th is good for negative toe.However for the alpine positive toe is recommended and though 1/8th is recomended at the side wall of the tire 1/16th on the tread is better.This is measured about 3 inches from the contact footprint of the tire
On my Lister I have 30 seconds of positive camber and just over 1/16th negative toe.On my 62 I have a negative camber of 30 seconds and 1/16th positive toe.I set the camber and castor and toe by my self.
Hope this helps.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Wait a minute. Isn't positive camber with the top of the wheel leaning out? Adding outer shims pulls the top of the wheel in. At least removing them let the left wheel move outward. I changed the left wheel from 1/2" to 1/4" (leaning in at the top) by removing four shims. The other side has no outer shims and one inner shim, but that is just storage, as near as I can tell. Right now, I want the tire to lean out at the top about 1/4".

I have a copy of the WSM 124. As usual, it is about as helpful as a document written in Chinese. It has a detail view of something that is supposed to be on the front axle, but I can't identify it. Naturally, the text says that illustration explains how to adjust camber.

Bill
 
R

repete

Donation Time
If you added or removed shims to change camber you may have also change toe settings I can't help you with the caster and camber settings BUT a quick easy way to check toe or to just find the center line. Just take a long piece of string and tie it off to (just say) the exh pipe then run it around the car keeping it tight and as close to the center of the wheels as possible. ASSUMING the car has the same track front and back (and same tire/wheels) the string will evenly touch both the front and back of all 4 tires with the front wheels straight ahead and zero toe. OR jack up the front and set on stands then spin the front tire and spray some black paint on the tread ( close to the center) while tire is spinning, then using a jack stand or something else that's steady rest a scratch awl on the stand and spin the tire again leaving slight score mark in the paint. Repeat on the other side, these marks don't have to be in the center, it's just a point to measure from left to right and compare front of wheel to the rear of the front wheel and determine what the toe is + or - . This works good to get it close when reassembling it
 
P

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
Toe

Bill :
you are correct negative camber is the wheel leaning in positive is the wheel leaning out, we have always run negative camber of 1/2deg keep in mind the settings should be camber, caster and finally toe camber effects the toe settings we have also always run 1/8' toe in on the new crossmember were building we'll run toe out theres a lot of theory on this as to turn in on entry,brakeing etc as to toe settings we use a string line centered off the rear wheel ,front to rear on the rim edge, then set the toe at each front wheel after centering the steering, its still done this way today on many Indy cars.

Joel
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
A desperation question: Are the fulcrum pins symmetrical? In other words, it they were rotated 180* would that have an impact on the camber? I really don't want to swap out crossmembers, especially as my spare has been pretty well butchered.

Also, it has been way too long since I took trig. Well, really, trig took me. Anyway, what does 1/2 degree over 19" translate into in inches?

Bill
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Thanks all. So I have about 1 1/2* of negative camber. No wonder it steers hard. I wonder if that also contributes to the on center vagueness?

This car is a very late Series V and I'm beginning to think this car was literally made from whatever they could find that would bolt on. Comparing measurements with my parts cars, a mid range Series V, the upper link on the parts car is about a quarter of an inch shorter than my driver, which if placed on the driver,would make the negative camber worse. The parts car appears to be pretty well aligned and has about 1/4" pack of shims in the outer location. The lower links appear to be identical.

I think that I should just repair the parts car crossmember assembly and install it. Otherwise, the only certainty is insanity.

Bill
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,

Just to be sure: You speak of shims in the "outer" position. By "outer" I assume you mean using the definition used in the WSM, where outer means closest to the shock tower, that is between the fulcrum pin and the tomwer.

It's been a while since I worked on my suspension, but from the WSM, it is clear to me that the most positive camber is achieved with the minimum(i.e.NONE) shims between the fulcrum pin and the shock tower and all the shims thus in the "storage" or "inner" location between the pin and the nut. I assume that is your case, but just being sure.

You don't say anything about the lower A frames. Are the lower bushings OK? If the lower bushngs are or ball joints are bad, it could also affect the camber.

Tom
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Correct. With no shims between the fulcrum and shock tower (all in storage), I have 1 1/2* of negative camber. Have not really checked the lower bushings and ball joints. I do know the joints appear to be relatively new, but do not know how to test any of the parts while installed and can find nothing in the WSM. Do you?

Bill
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Just visually, do the ends of the lower pins appear to be in the center of the bushings?

I'm not sure rebuilding your spare assembly will avoid insanity! Do you see any signs of damage to the driver crossmember ? If not I would pursue a fix on it a bit further. Hopefully someone else who had a similar problem will chime in.

One more thing to check. Are the upper pins mounted in holes quite near the top of the tower? About a year or so ago someone was rebuilding their front end and found 2 sets of holes in the tower and the upper link was mounted in the lower holes. We concluded this was a modification by a previous owner. But I would think if you had the same it would make the camber more neg.

Tom
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
One set of holes, fulcrum bolted in near the top. Everything appears to be properly centered. No signs of damage or repair to anything, but the entire front end (including the right inner fender and some exterior sheet metal) of this car seems be wopper-jawed. The inner fender shows no signs of repair, but it has obviously been "shrunk" to fit the rails. Sure would like to know the history of this car. The guys that assembled the sheet metal on these cars sure earned their money.

The left rear fender has been repaired, light hit in the side, but the rear of the car is straight!

Tom, the problem with fixing the "good" crossmember is I have no idea of what the problem could be. Where do I start?

Bill

Bill
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
lower bushings look centered on the pins?

Bill, I'm no expert, just sharing what I learned doing my one front end.

As I said, maybe someone else will chime in with an idea.

If you have a complete spare front end, maybe it makes sense to rebuild it and install it. Could be real insanity of it ends up with same problem!

I had no similar problem with mine, but I never even looked at the alignment until after I rebuilt it. I could see the lower bushings were shot. The lower bushing was not concentric to the pin. After I rebuilt it, it aligned OK.

Tom
 
P

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
camber

Bill.

One thing you might keep in mind is these crossmembers have been known to sag, you need to get the measurements for the fulcrum pins(upper) distance side to side maybe from Doug Jennings in Dayton also Rick McCords Tiger
work shop manual has the measurements for the crossmember mounts this
might be of help also. these are what I, used to repair the chassis on the Tiger we used to have, I also have crossmember here that I, am assuming
is good if you need some measurements from that let me know by email jkgriffs@yahoo.com also the lower fulcrum pins are a different distance front to rear this might only effect the castor however. Try Geo Barton in columbus for the chassis measurements I gave him the work shop manual
email me if you need a #

Joel
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Well, if there are no known parts differences and no one knows of a way I could have assembled it incorrectly, that leaves sag as the probable culprit. Nothing I can do about that.

Looks like its time to start repairing the parts car crossmember. It still needs a quarter inch of shims to keep the wheels vertical.

Bill
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Bill: As I remember it:

Positive camber is preferable because it brings the vertical angle of the swivel axis (a line joining the swivel pins [or ball joints]) down to the center point of the tread, making steering easier at low speeds. In racing, often negative camber is used, but I can't remember why;

Toe-in is usual on rear wheel drive vehicles, to compensate for the tendency for the wheels to adopt a toe-out when in motion, due to flexibility and wear in the steering gear as the front wheels slightly resist being pushed along. Front drivers usually have toe-out because the opposite occurs, there is a tendency to toe-in because the front wheels exert the driving force.

Repete & Procraft: Since the front and rear tracks are different on series Alpines (rear narrower) I can't see how you can use the string method. Someone more knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Sort of an update. After installing new bushes and swapping parts (the upper link, ball, upright and lower ball from the parts car) from the parts car, things look somewhat better. The wheels now have a slight positive camber when tested with a carpenters level. That's with no shims. In the parts car, I would guess the positive camber was about 1 degree, using 3 shims each side.

No, I have no idea why the difference. I could measure no difference in crossmembers. Or in anything else, for that matter. I do think there might be differences in the lower ball joints, but they are so odd shaped it is difficult to tell. It is tough to get measurements from something that has no flat sides or straight parts. The crossmember in the parts car is a "Hoosier Special". Rusty as all hell. The one in the driver is a very nice, rust free California part.

But its done and will be workable. Now to set the toe and get the engine correctly positioned in relation to the steering arms.

Bill
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Speaking of toe, I forgot to mention how that has changed. Previously, with the steering arms centered, each wheel had some toe out, pretty evenly distributed. Now, with the arms centered, the passenger side has a little tow in, drivers side a ton of tow out. Like maybe a half inch! That's without even unlocking the toe adjustment nuts.

Did anyone say anything about interchangeable parts?

Bill
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Bill Blue said:
Speaking of toe, I forgot to mention how that has changed. Previously, with the steering arms centered, each wheel had some toe out, pretty evenly distributed. Now, with the arms centered, the passenger side has a little tow in, drivers side a ton of tow out. Like maybe a half inch! That's without even unlocking the toe adjustment nuts.

Did anyone say anything about interchangeable parts?

Bill
Click to expand...

Hi Bill
Lets address the tie rods first.I'm sure they are not equal.
On the passenger side unlock the locking nut on the tie rod.remove the tie rod end from the arm.Snug back the locking nut.Remove the tie rod end and carefully count the number of turns to remove.repeat this on the other side.The number of turns to remove should be pretty close to equal.Set the steering wheel to center and you may want to stop it from moving.Adjust both tie rods to close to equal by counting again the number of turns. You may have to add a few turns or maybe delete a few turns but still keep the number of turns on both tie rods as equal as possible.You can get the front wheels close to straight by using a 2x 4 and a spacer parrell to the rear tire or by eye.Now you are set to adjust toe in but first I would recheck camber.Seeing you are using a level for checking camber get a protractor to measure the degrees of camber.Should be 1/2 a degree plus or minus up to15 seconds.1 degree equals 1 minute
As to toe in it can be + or - but in an alpine + is better.
Adjust till you have 1/8th of an inch of toe.Be sure to relock the locking nuts
Hope this helps
Have you checked castor?The manual says factory set and no adjustment can be done.This is not true at all.
Isn't this so much fun?
 
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