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Rack and pinion in an alpine?

W

Wumpus

Donation Time
The steering is getting a bit loose in my old alpine, and instead of spending time to get everything fixed up, I was wondering whether it would be possible to just simply use a rack and pinion, fixing and upgrading at once :D

One of my buddies has a mustang II rack and pinion that I was thinking of using for this.

Not really sure on where to start with this idea so if anyone has any kind of guidance that would be awesome!
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Wumpus said:
The steering is getting a bit loose in my old alpine, and instead of spending time to get everything fixed up, I was wondering whether it would be possible to just simply use a rack and pinion, fixing and upgrading at once :D

One of my buddies has a mustang II rack and pinion that I was thinking of using for this.

Not really sure on where to start with this idea so if anyone has any kind of guidance that would be awesome!
Click to expand...

It is not just a simple replacement job.First of all you need front steering arms from a Tiger or an MG to start.The crosssmember needs some modifications to accept the rack,Then you need a longer rod to connect the steering sgaft to the rack,Oh you also need universals.If you do all this I suggest you use Mustang II spindles rotor and calipers.These you need a good machinist
If you are really interested you can email me. I have done a few
 
socorob

socorob

Donation Time
Dales resto makes a whole new crossmember with upgraded brakes, suspension and rack and pinion, but you're gonna pay for it.
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
It would be easier to go through and sort the alpine system, and for what its worth, a well sorted alpine system is probably nicer than the modified MG/Tiger setup.

As for Dales bolt in front end... with shocks,brakes etc you are looking at over 5K... and you would still need some parts to extend the alpine steering column (or get a tiger one)
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
alpine_64 said:
It would be easier to go through and sort the alpine system, and for what its worth, a well sorted alpine system is probably nicer than the modified MG/Tiger setup.

As for Dales bolt in front end... with shocks,brakes etc you are looking at over 5K... and you would still need some parts to extend the alpine steering column (or get a tiger one)
Click to expand...

Micheal

For sure if it was a stock alpine I would definitely agree with your first paragraph
My first modified front end cost me $2400 plus a lot of labor.Works well after 17 years.The 62 works well with the Mustang II rack.spindles etc.Still alot of work

Wumpus

If you REALLY REALLY want the rack etc you can cut out a Mustang II front end and fit it
I had that on the 62 for 25 years and was an excellent front end.The problem is the track is wider than an alpine.I used the 8 inch ford rear end and kept the Mustang track stock but did do the flare bit.Then you need to do some stuff to connect the steering column to the rack.
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
rack

plus you have to remove the alpine steering gear box. then comes all the problems trying to make it steer where you want it to go. then the cracks that develop in the crossmember. etc.
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
I recommend not going to all the expense and labor, just to end up up with a lesser handling set up than the stock Alpine has. A completely rebuilt Alpine front end, is a delight to drive, as the car just flat handles.

I know that it sounds sexy to say Rack and pinion, but not every car gains anything good by switching to it. The stock Alpine front end is so good, that it doesn´t need to be changed when the V6 conversion is done to the Alpine. I think you´ll need to go some to find something that will even come close to the stock front end.

Jose
 
W

Wumpus

Donation Time
Well see there was something more behind it that motivated me to even come and ask about it here. I currently have an old mazda 12A rotary in there, along with Mazda trans, power brakes, electrics and some other small stuff.

The car is fully original other than that, so it still has the original suspension which was designed for the much heavier British straight 4. This makes the front of the car sit up quite high which is fine, but it also causes one other major issue: bump steer.
The combo of the original steering and a suspension designed for more weight just makes it hard to drive at freeway speeds. Darts all over the place...not that safe if im honest...every time the suspension is compressed, the wheel automatically turns on it's own.

Was thinking of just cutting the springs but a rack would be getting the job done right, not just doing a quick fix on it.

Thanks for the responses and info guys! :)
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
bump steer isnt caused by the ride height being too high, its caused by a mismatched geometry of the steering linkage.

If the linkage is adjusted according to spec, the linkage forms parallelograms with the control arms across the entire suspension range.

Also if you cut down your springs, you will also increase the spring rate, which with a lighter drivetrain will probably make it too stiff or at least mismatched with the rear.
 
P

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
Rack

As Chuck can attest too , we also built our own front crossmember
modifing the stock one for a rack and pinion set up like a Tiger is a lot of work,we did all this and finally built our own,you can go to TE/AE forum
and see what we did.
 
RootesRooter

RootesRooter

Donation Time
Compared to modern cars, Alpines are quite loose and, even with new parts, will tend to "hunt" on freeways that are rutted from heavy truck traffic. R&P (using a modified Alpine crossmember) will solve some of that, but at the cost of compromised steering (eg. Ackerman angles).

However, if it's "darting," I think you need to carefully inspect your entire front end, starting with easiest to observe and test: How are the steering cross-link bushings? How old are the A-arm bushings? Are the sway bar bushings worn? Ball joints: any wiggle or lower OR upper? Are the ball joints fully greased? Finally, how old are the shocks? If those are all good, then you need to consider a worn steering box (is it a long-term leaker?) or perhaps the corresponding bushing on the passenger side.

If nothing jumps out at you, it might be worth paying a front end shop to determine where the slop originates from. Note: if they haven't worked on a lot of older cars like ours, they may tell you it's ALL sloppy, especially the cross-tube.


Wumpus said:
Well see there was something more behind it that motivated me to even come and ask about it here. I currently have an old mazda 12A rotary in there, along with Mazda trans, power brakes, electrics and some other small stuff.

The car is fully original other than that, so it still has the original suspension which was designed for the much heavier British straight 4. This makes the front of the car sit up quite high which is fine, but it also causes one other major issue: bump steer.
The combo of the original steering and a suspension designed for more weight just makes it hard to drive at freeway speeds. Darts all over the place...not that safe if im honest...every time the suspension is compressed, the wheel automatically turns on it's own.

Was thinking of just cutting the springs but a rack would be getting the job done right, not just doing a quick fix on it.

Thanks for the responses and info guys! :)
Click to expand...
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Nickodell said:
Has anyone fitted R&P steering in an Alpine without ending up with reverse Ackerman?
Click to expand...

I think Tiger Tom did this in a 1970 AlpineI saw it at Suni one.Supposedly worked well.I think it was a foreign rack mounted behind the crossmember but that was a long time ago so my memeory may be somewhat off.
 
RootesRooter

RootesRooter

Donation Time
The fastback Alpine GT is a McPhearson (sp?) strut design, so the front suspension, crossmember, etc likely wouldn't be transferable to our Series cars, with or without R&P. If it DID fit and also cured the reverse-Ackerman effect, the Tiger boys would long ago have snapped up every last fastback in the States for parts.


Chuck Ingram said:
I think Tiger Tom did this in a 1970 AlpineI saw it at Suni one.Supposedly worked well.I think it was a foreign rack mounted behind the crossmember but that was a long time ago so my memeory may be somewhat off.
Click to expand...
 
C

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
RootesRooter said:
The fastback Alpine GT is a McPhearson (sp?) strut design, so the front suspension, crossmember, etc likely wouldn't be transferable to our Series cars, with or without R&P. If it DID fit and also cured the reverse-Ackerman effect, the Tiger boys would long ago have snapped up every last fastback in the States for parts.
Click to expand...

Tom never changed the front suspension.
He just converted the car to a R and P
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
rack

tom installed a mazda rotary in the rotorooter and i think the rack he installed was a out of mini. the steering in a fast back is entirely different from an alpine. the center track rod runs under the engine with idler arms on both sides. compare the aluminum oil pan with the steel of the alpine and you will see the difference. the steering had to go in order to install the rotary. with the struts there is only one adjustment to the front end and that is toe in. tom's install of a rack meant a lot of engineering and fabricating to make it work since all the steering is below the frame rails unlike the alpine. the steering on the fastbacks leaves a lot to be desired. they're great for open highway cruising but anyone that followed me thru the mountains of n.c. last year can tell you how much i was cranking the wheel! original tiger steering is great compared to the fastbacks scuffing tires on tight turns. the wheels are never on the same plane when turning.
 
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