Potential major problem

[sammaw@bellsout]

Hi Guys, I did try pushing/rocking with clutch depressed, in gear. It did what it was supposed to.

I usually drain oil thru a filter ( xl restaurant type coffee filter) so I can see any abnormal particles.

As for a car name, I can think of a few right now such as Rusty, Lumpy, Speedy, Fido, Stump, Money Pit etc I think you get the picture

 

[John W]

Hey Sam, Best to nickname your car when it's trouble free. Probably something really simple. Or something that will just start working again and you'll never know what it was.

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

Well, I don't think I'll be calling her "Maytag"

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

Update - I drained the oil today, and filtered. If I were panning for gold I would have gone home hungry. Just a very few tiny brassy metallic flakes. I took the car to my mechanic friend to pull the pan this week.

Also drained the radiator - No oil in the water or water in the oil.

 

[husky drvr]

I would consider pulling the trans, clutch, and flywheel before the sump. Just me though, since I would do that myself. I would definitely pull the dust cover from the bottom front of the bellhousing and try to see if anything obvious is visible there.
I can't think of anything that would solidly lock up the engine in both directions of rotation, short of a catastrophic failure, except a loose bolt wedging the flywheel. Even a timing chain failure should show damage on the T. C. cover.

Free advice is worth what you pay for it. lol

I wish you the best,

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

Ok Guys, We pulled the pan and this is what we found.

The front side thrust bearing had worn very thin, allowing the back side thrust bearing to turn out of its track, binding the crankshaft. The main bearing looks good, the main journal looks good. The rear crank thrust surface
has been self machined a bit where it rubbed over the thrust bearing when it dropped out. It is not bad, but not perfectly flat, kind of like the surface of a brake rotor that could use a turning.

What may have caused the front thrust bearing to wear so much?

So, without tearing the engine down to machine the crank, or replace it, would it be ok to use an over thickness thrust bearing on on the side with the wear? I refitteded the main bearing cap and it looks like it will still hold the thrust bearings in place as it is, but I imagine there is a little extra space to be compensated for.

Thanks for your advice.

Sam

 

[Jim E]

You might have dodged a bullet on this one.... I am not sure you can do this with the engine in the car but maybe. You need to get a couple thrust washers in it and see what the crank end play is, do not recall the clearance off the top my head. That way you can see if there is a oversized thrust washer big enough [thick enough] to take up the wear. This is something that you really need to have right cause when they spit thrust washers it usually chews heck out of the block and crank and they are toast. Well you can get the crank fixed at Standard in Charlotte NC. If there is not a oversize thrust washer big enough or you do not get a warm fuzzy when you are ready to button it back up you are looking at pulling the motor and then maybe you can remove the crank leaving the rest of it together send the crank to standard and have it fixed.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Jim is right. you are very lucky that it locked up before it damaged your engine. I recommend measuring the thrust measurement of the crank, and if it is oversize and no oversize bearings are available, the crank thrust surface can be welded up and re cut to size. You don´t want a thrust that is out of tolerance, because the engine will spit a thrust washer and your then engine is done.
I would send it to where Jim recommends, because he has experience with them and he says they do great work.

Jose

 

[John W]

Sorry to hear ___________ almost "spit the bit," Sam.

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

I talked to Joe Elmore of Standard Crankshaft, and he indicated that when the thrust surface is grooved, as I described, it will eat a thrust bearing in short order, due to reduce load bearing area under clutch loading. I am going to take the crank to them to resurface when I get it out of the engine.

I hate downtime

 

[Alpine Bob]

Sam,
Are you going to be up and running for the SOS and Show next month?

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

Bob, I can only hope. If just the crank needs repair, the guy at Standard Crankshaft told me it would be about a 1 week turnaround. I am going to pull the engine tomorrow night. Hopefully the block is not damaged, or I'll be shopping for another, then who knows when???

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

The latest

Pulled the engine.. actually only took 1 3/4 hours to do.

1st suprising find, the timing chain tensioner had basically broken in two. There are no burr on the chain to wear it. The rubber was very soft, you could just about pull it apart with little effort. As if it was dissolving in the oil. I put this in new last summer, bought from SS. Has anyone else seen anything like this. I will call Rick tomorrow to discuss.


The crankshaft had the wear I discribed before, the all bearing journals are smooth, mains and rods, show no issues. The center bearing cap is slightly worn on one side. I will address this with the crankshaft repair shop to see if they can add some metal and machine it smooth.

The center bearing support shows some wear on the back side, but there is still a decent seat for the thrust bearing. I don't have a measuring tool to tell you what the depth of the groove is on it, but the back is somewhat less then the front groove. Is there a known standard depth for this seat? What do I use to measure?

I was planning on taking the shaft, centercap, and thrust bearing to the crank guys so I can tell my story.

Is there anything I need to specifically ask for from them other than help me, help me?


Sam

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Sam,

Unfortunately, you can´t weld the main cap without warping it. You would need to have the block line bored afterwards to make sure it was straight and in line again, and that is if it hasn´t opened up to where it doesn´t fit the block again. The fitment of the caps, and this cap in particular is so important. A main cap should fit tightly to keep it from shuffeling.

I wouldn´t use the thrust cap like it is now, because if it spit the washer when it was stock depth, you can guarantee it will spit it right away at the diminished depth it has now. I really don´t know if you´ll be able to save this block.

Jose

 

[mikephillips]

You might see if JimE or someone else has a cracked block you can get the center main cap off of if the rest of block is ok. It would still need to be line bored since that cap an block weren't originally machined together, but worst case would be that you're in the same place you are now, needing a new block.

 

[Jim E]

This thrust washer problem just seems to be all to common.

Jan has reported on the replacment tensioner rubber gizmos failing and sugest we reuse the one we take out.

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

Hi Guys, here's where I am.

Yesterday I took the engine down to Columbia SC to get the opinion of Jim E.

The doctor called the patient dead.

From his place we went to Eric G's Alpine Ranch, where we found another S4 1592 engine waiting under a tarp to see the light of day again. (as a side note , the deceased engine was number matching to the car, but the donor cars engine was built just a few days after my car)

I will start on it tomorrow to see if it is a good block to rebuild.

Wish me luck.

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

Took the engine apart today. The reason the car this engine came from was parked for the last time was a spun #2 rod bearing, but i believe the crank will be ok after a turning. The main journals looked ok. All were standard sized, so theres room to work them. There was alot of grit in the bearing to crank area, like the Driver/Owner drove on the beach with no air filter, and never changed the oil. I am taking the block to a shop to have it tanked and magnafluxed on Monday and have the crank looked at.

so far so good

 

[V6 JOSE]

Hi Sam,

You might want to have the shop remove all the freeze plugs and clean out all the gunk that accumulates around the number 4 cylinder. The normal circulation of the water isn´t very good back there and sand, rust and other junk can collect aroung that cylinder, which can cause the engine to run hotter than normal after a rebuild.

I would also have the steel feeeze plugs replaced with brass ones.

Jose

 

[sammaw@bellsout]

"update"

Well, I've made good progress since the last post, heres the list

Got a good block from Eric G, cleaned, bored to 30 over

Sent camshaft, rockers and tappets to Delta (KB grind)

Had crank repaired ( local racer boys)

Torqued head to 45.956lbs ( give or take the 4% the torque wrench is good for)


Put everything together, time to set valves, put the cover on, prime the oil galleries, and see what happens

oh yeah, pay the credit card bills