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One for the WWII experts

sammaw@bellsout

sammaw@bellsout

Silver Level Sponsor
Hi guys, I was cleaning out the workshop of an Uncle that served in the Navy during WWII, and found a 40mm artillery shell. The primer is out but the projectile is attached. I think it is for a bofors AAA gun. My Uncle was a mechanic on a supply ship in the Pacific, and his job was to keep the AA guns working. My question is with the projectile attached, how can I tell if it has been disabled, there are no drillings, and it looks like the projectile has not been removed from the casing. The tip of the projectile looks as if you can screw it off, but I'm not about to go there.

I would hate to call the local bomb squad so they blow it up for kicks and grins, and ruin a great piece of history.

Any advice? ( other than don't hit it with a hammer?)
 
Alpine Bob

Alpine Bob

Donation Time
Sam,
Sounds like Smity has a good idea, check it out and keep us posted. Sounds like a great subject.:cool:
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Don't know anything about artillery, but every shell I've ever seen is constructed so the powder runs out if the primer is removed. Poke a dowell rod up the primer hole, if it goes in several inches, I'd guess you have a dud. Even if there was an explosive charge in the projectile, it could not go off, unless perhaps it was in a fire.

As the Sargent in Private Benjamin said, "Most of them are inert, however, a few of them may be ert".

Bill
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Sam, I'm only an expert from the point of view of being a pre-teen in WWII and commonly finding unexploding ordnance lying around. The 40mm isn't actually classed as artillery; as you suggest it's probably from a 40mm Bofors dual-purpose (AA and ground use) gun. We sometimes found the complete shell on the ground after an air raid at low level (too high for the larger guns), as a certain number were duds. By duds, I don't mean they couldn't explode, just that they hadn't. Yet.

A lot of kids - too many - were killed by taking them home. (Of course, the Germans also dropped booby-trapped devices designed purely to kill civilians, especially children. There were several types, the most common being the "butterfly bomb," that became armed by hitting the ground, after which the merest move would set it off. Our primary school - all the schools - had posters on the walls showing all kinds of British and German ordnance, like cartridges, shells and mortar bombs, plus the more recent booby traps, and we watched Public Service films periodically that usually showed a kid finding one of them and saying "look what I've found," followed by an explosion. I'm ashamed to say that half the time we cheered because the kids usually looked like dweebs. But that's another story).

The one you have is probably inert, but may not be, and it's the "inert" souvenirs that kill people. And it doesn't matter how old it is. They still unearth World War One bombs in London when excavating for new buildings, and they are still dangerous as coiled snakes.

Forget the VFW. They are not EOD experts. Contact the nearest Army base if possible, so that an EOD team can remove it. Failing that, call the local police and they will contact them for you.
 
sammaw@bellsout

sammaw@bellsout

Silver Level Sponsor
There is no powder (cordite) in the brass, but still not sure about the projectile. These are what we see in the old movies where the "flak" goes off near the planes. I think the fuse for the projectile is lit by the burn from the primary motive charge, so if I fill the brass shell with water, let it sit around for a good time, I should be able to open the projectile?? Anyone know what explosive they used back then for projectiles?
 
John W

John W

Bronze Level Sponsor
Was a guy somewhere around Florence blew up a cannon ball he was cleaning in his driveway, so they checked his house and found it full of unexploded "souveniers." This sounds "half baked," Sam.
 
Eleven

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
Follow Nicks advice. The powder in the base is only to get it aloft. The thing that screws in the top ignites what brings down aircraft. It is sealed and won't drain out through the primer hole and is measurably more dangerous than the casing charge. Call the local police and if you lose it you lose it. There is no point in becoming the last casualty of WWII over it...
(I am glad I did not grow up in London during the war. I would have been a poster child for unexploded ordinance and what not to do. I can remember hitting 22 cartriges with a hammer to see what would happen. Still wake up in sweats over my youthful stupidity - of course now I work corners at car races so haven't learned too much.)
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
sammaw@bellsout said:
There is no powder (cordite) in the brass, but still not sure about the projectile. These are what we see in the old movies where the "flak" goes off near the planes. I think the fuse for the projectile is lit by the burn from the primary motive charge, so if I fill the brass shell with water, let it sit around for a good time, I should be able to open the projectile?? Anyone know what explosive they used back then for projectiles?
Click to expand...

AA shells were of three types. None of them used the propellant charge to light any kind of fuse (that was the method back in the 3rd century BC, with chinese war rockets).

The old, old ones were impact detonated; they exploded when they hit something. The result was often to cause more deaths and damage to the civilian population, or friendly forces, when they landed after missing their target. (Also, air-to-air 20mm, 30mm and such were all impact detonated, and we often found these lying after an air-to-air combat). The next kind were set by the gunner before loading, to explode after a certain number of seconds (i.e. at a certain height, give or take), and also caused a lot of civilian damage if the fuse failed.

The most complex, and effective, were proximity fused. A tiny transceiver sent out radio pulses and exploded the shell when receiving a return signal showing that they were within the lethal radius of the target plane. This was a joint US/Brit. invention, and brought down more German bombers by AA in 6 months than in the previous 5 years. It was particularly effective on the V1 Flying Bomb.

There were a variety of explosives, the most common being amatol (ammonium nitrate & TNT), which is very stable and not as subject to deterioration in storage as other HEs. There were others, like Hexogen-Al, amonal (am. nitrate and al powder), and many more.

Let's say this once more; don't piss about soaking it in water (it's not an unexploded M80). Leave the bloody thing alone and call the Army or police! Even if the main charge has been steamed out (which is not certain, since there are you say no holes in the shell), the detonator and gaine (booster) are enough to kill or maim you if still live.
 
weaselkeeper

weaselkeeper

Silver Level Sponsor
I can't let this one alone. Sorry.

Having spent limited time with EOD troops in Kirkuk Iraq and having some training for UXO (Unexploded Ordinance) landing on Idaho's Saylor Creek bombing range, where I worked, I know enough to walk away form this. quickly.

Soak it in water? Huh? Talk to the Navy. Why do they treat torpedos and projectiles as live when they find a sunken wreck? I just read an article on a WWII submarine they found a couple of years ago near Java. Soaked for 60 years. Yes, they consider all munitions as live.

You speak of loosing history. Is it really worth keeping it? The risk is you or someone around you becoming history. If you're lucky enough, you'll live through it without arms and someone else can take care of you. At least you'll be on TV.

If you live near an Air Force base, you can call EOD guys in the Civil Engineering Squadron. Army Engineers will also have EOD with them. If they blow it up, so what? At least it didn't happen in your garage

Bottom line, things like this kill and maim people. I don't mean to be a butt about this, but keeping it and playing with it will risk your life.
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
I'm with you guys... leave that sucker alone and get the experts - this is no job for amateurs. Heck, even the experts have problems with these devices. See recent news item:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,698245,00.html

06/02/2010

A World War II bomb killed three disposal experts and injured six in the central German city of Göttingen on Tuesday night when it exploded just as they were preparing to defuse it. Wartime bombs are found almost weekly in Germany, but deaths are rare.

Three members of a bomb disposal team were killed in the central German city of Göttingen on Tuesday night while they were preparing to defuse a World War II bomb found on a construction site, police said.

Two people were seriously injured and four received slight injuries in the explosion which happened just as the surrounding area was being evacuated. All the casualties belonged to the 13-man bomb disposal team. Police are investigating what caused the explosion. Reports said it went off before the specialists had begun trying to defuse it.

The explosion hurled deadly shrapnel for hundreds of meters but no one else was hurt because the area had been evacuated.

"The bomb exploded at 9:36 p.m. while the disposal was being prepared. We have to investigate what preparatory actions were taking place at the time," the president of the Göttingen police, Robert Kruse, told a news conference on Wednesday.

"The men who died were highly experienced specialists in defusing unexploded bombs from World War II," Kruse said. They were aged 38, 52 and 55 and had been doing their dangerous work for decades.

Barely a week goes by in Germany without unexploded bombs from World War II being discovered on building sites, but deaths are rare. The 500 kilogram bomb was of a particularly dangerous type because it had a delay-action chemical fuse, which can make it highly unstable.

But as bomb disposal operations are so routine in Germany, no one had been expecting any problems with this one, found lying in the ground at a depth of seven meters.

"We have lost three experienced bomb disposal experts and we mourn them," the interior minister of the state of Lower Saxony, Uwe Schünemann said. "They had been in the job for 20 to 30 years and had removed between 600 and 700 bombs. Their work protected the population."
Click to expand...
 
MikeH

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
Thought this might interest you. Don't know what year this happened.

California teacher blows hand off
trying to squash bug with artillery shell

Wed Apr 05, 10:50 AM EST

VENTURA, Calif. (of course!) - A teacher who kept a 40-mm artillery shell
on his desk as a paperweight blew off part of his hand when he apparently
used the ammunition to try to squash a bug, authorities say.

The 13-centimetre-long shell exploded Monday while Robert Colla was
teaching 20 to 25 students at an adult education class.

Part of Colla's right hand was severed and he suffered severe burns and
minor shrapnel wounds to his forearms and torso, fire Capt. Tom Weinell said.
No one else was injured. He was reported in stable condition at a hospital.

The teacher slammed the shell down in an attempt to kill something
that was buzzing or crawling across the desk, said Fire Marshal Glen Albright.

Colla found the 40-mm round while hunting years ago and "obviously he
didn't think the round was live," said Dennis Huston, who teaches computer design with Colla.
 
sammaw@bellsout

sammaw@bellsout

Silver Level Sponsor
How did the bug come out?

Seriously, I have contacted the Army Chief of Ordnance and Explosives in Huntsville Ala, and will do as they ask. I have to send them some photos of the actual item.

Here's a photo of one similar of one like I have. It's the round being held in hand. (That's not me, I don't wear a watch:))

The guy trying to kill the bug must have had just the projectile, or a different piece such a a low velocity grenade, because the length of the round I have is about 20 Inches.
 

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Ron67Alpine

Ron67Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Do a "Mythbusters". Take it out to the woods, w/a 30-06. Set it up on a stump. Get far back, behind a tree and pretend it's a little woodland creature. After hitting it a few times, if it hasn't blown up, it MAY be safe. If it does, you've at least had a little fun w/it.:rolleyes:
 
sammaw@bellsout

sammaw@bellsout

Silver Level Sponsor
The business end is about 3/4 inch wide by 3 inches high. I could probably hit it without to much trouble from 100 yards from a bench rest after I was sighted in.

BUT

at 100 yards, the bullet takes about 1/10 (@approx 3000 fps) of a second to get there, and assuming a hit with spectacular results, it would take about the same amount of time for the shrapnel to get back to where I fired from.

It would take that much time for the human nervous system to register pain, so with a piece of well placed shapnel in the forehead, I'd never know what hit me.:eek:
 
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