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Oil cooler still necessary?
- Thread starter johnd
- Start date
65beam
Donation Time
cooler
engine oils have come a long way since the last alpine was built. the new engines require an oil that can withstand extreme heat, low temps and also a lot more stress on the molecules and still maintain a specified viscosity. rootes believed the cooler was needed to help maintain the viscosity of the oil. they did drop the cooler after they went to the fastback. the GT had the aluminum oil pan which may have helped cool the oil but nothing on the non GT version. if you want an oil that is far above anything else use a DEXOS approved oil. it's like getting into a fight with an 800 lb gorilla. it is tough. one of the most important things is to maintain at least 1200 ppm of zinc for anti wear. I guess my opinion is that the cooler is not really needed unless originality is required. I did add one to my series 4 when we restored it but it's probably over kill.
engine oils have come a long way since the last alpine was built. the new engines require an oil that can withstand extreme heat, low temps and also a lot more stress on the molecules and still maintain a specified viscosity. rootes believed the cooler was needed to help maintain the viscosity of the oil. they did drop the cooler after they went to the fastback. the GT had the aluminum oil pan which may have helped cool the oil but nothing on the non GT version. if you want an oil that is far above anything else use a DEXOS approved oil. it's like getting into a fight with an 800 lb gorilla. it is tough. one of the most important things is to maintain at least 1200 ppm of zinc for anti wear. I guess my opinion is that the cooler is not really needed unless originality is required. I did add one to my series 4 when we restored it but it's probably over kill.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Take the cooler off and watch your hot temp oil pressure.
Mine will run all day at 45psi with the cooler on (on the regulator).
Take the cooler off and its 25psi (regulator closed).
Fresh oil will hold the pressure longer, but as the oil ages and the viscosity improvers are killed, the pressure wanes since the pump doesnt have enough capacity to keep the regulator bleeding the excess pressure.
Mine will run all day at 45psi with the cooler on (on the regulator).
Take the cooler off and its 25psi (regulator closed).
Fresh oil will hold the pressure longer, but as the oil ages and the viscosity improvers are killed, the pressure wanes since the pump doesnt have enough capacity to keep the regulator bleeding the excess pressure.
RootesRooter
Donation Time
The aluminum pan came along after Rootes testing found the GT version was running oil temps far too hot and the Arrow Range design did not allow for adding an oil cooler. The non-GT version was running a cast-iron head w/single carb, and at least 20 fewer HP than the GT.
Adding an oil temperature sending unit (like on the H120) doesn't look too difficult. Has anyone out there tried it?
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Oil pressure regulator.
When the oil gets too thin (due to high heat) the running clearances _can_ loose more oil than the pump can supply (at or slightly above idle speed). When this happens, the regulator (dump valve) closes and the oil pressure runs lower than the engine was designed to run.
alpineracer
Diamond Level Sponsor
It may seem like an awkward placement, but I drilled and tapped the oil drain plug and added an oil temp sensor there. Ran the wire through that black plastic wrap stuff and zip tied that to the oil dipstick tube. Never had an issue. The sensor had a slip blade connector; oil draining was not an issue.
alpine_64
Donation Time
I remember posing the question about 10 years back when i was going to upgrade from the 1494 to 1725, do i add an oil cooler? what confused me was rootes added them to the alpine SV but other alloy had cars with heavier bodies, scepter, gazelle, series rapier didn't use the cooler.. so was it a partial marketing ploy for the sporting alpine? (and indeed rootes added the cooler to the MKII tiger as well)
Now both alpines and tigers often get upgraded from 1600 to 1725 of from 260 to 289/302 without oil coolers and dont seem to suffer..
I dont think an oil cooler can hurt... but for normal driving is it required? And if you change the oil often you shouldnt suffer from degradation as much.
Another thing to consider.. unless you want concourse correct use a new oil cooler.. dont risk what debris might be in an old S/H unit that may ruin your rebuilt/original engine. On the alpines a while back there was a ford oil to water cooler that got some press... it seemed like a good option.. no drop in startup pressure.. helped warm up and cool down.
Now both alpines and tigers often get upgraded from 1600 to 1725 of from 260 to 289/302 without oil coolers and dont seem to suffer..
I dont think an oil cooler can hurt... but for normal driving is it required? And if you change the oil often you shouldnt suffer from degradation as much.
Another thing to consider.. unless you want concourse correct use a new oil cooler.. dont risk what debris might be in an old S/H unit that may ruin your rebuilt/original engine. On the alpines a while back there was a ford oil to water cooler that got some press... it seemed like a good option.. no drop in startup pressure.. helped warm up and cool down.
Nickodell
Donation Time
In addition to helping the oil temperature keep within recommended limits, an oil cooler can add a measurable amount of engine cooling. Oil not only reduces friction, it provides close to 100% of the cooling of the valve rocker gear, main and rod bearings and the piston sides and crowns, and much of the cooling of the cam shaft and drive chain. It also provides a portion of the cylinder wall cooling. This heat is dissipated ("rejected" to the engineer) by radiation and conduction to the air surrounding the sump, but an oil cooler adds additional rejection and ergo overall engine cooling.
The downside is the possibility of overcooling the oil in low temperatures, resulting in condensed water aand other contaminants not being driven off properly. Since I try to take Matilda out at least once every two weks even when the temperature is in the 30s and 40s, I made a removable baffle for the cooler. (I have a hazy recollection of one being sold, either as OEM or as an aftermarket device.)
The downside is the possibility of overcooling the oil in low temperatures, resulting in condensed water aand other contaminants not being driven off properly. Since I try to take Matilda out at least once every two weks even when the temperature is in the 30s and 40s, I made a removable baffle for the cooler. (I have a hazy recollection of one being sold, either as OEM or as an aftermarket device.)
RootesRooter
Donation Time
what confused me was rootes added them to the alpine SV but other alloy had cars with heavier bodies, scepter, gazelle, series rapier didn't use the cooler.. so was it a partial marketing ploy for the sporting alpine?
According to the Light Range Manual, the SV Alpine was rated at 97hp, the others 91 or less = more heat to deal with in the SV. Maybe it was partially marketing/partially expectations that the Alpine would be driven harder. Also, those other cars came standard with 3.89's, while the first 10,000+ SV's all came with 4.22's, meaning higher sustained rpms on the highway were anticipated.
According to the Light Range Manual, the SV Alpine was rated at 97hp, the others 91 or less = more heat to deal with in the SV. Maybe it was partially marketing/partially expectations that the Alpine would be driven harder. Also, those other cars came standard with 3.89's, while the first 10,000+ SV's all came with 4.22's, meaning higher sustained rpms on the highway were anticipated.
alpine_64
Donation Time
the 4.22 thing was USA only though correct? that said. UK is a much colder climate than many US states.. but not all and had the coolers. The Hunters GT's down in AU where it is warmer had an engine equal to and sometimes rater higher than alpines and didn't have the alloy sump or oil cooler and survived.
I think we all agree they are not a bad idea... but for normal street use.. not sure how vital? I still also stand by my warning about S/H setups.
I have a holbay oil filter base with the temp sender and matching gauge.... but have never got round to fitting them.. would make an interesting test
RootesRooter
Donation Time
the 4.22 thing was USA only though correct? that said. UK is a much colder climate than many US states.. but not all and had the coolers. The Hunters GT's down in AU where it is warmer had an engine equal to and sometimes rater higher than alpines and didn't have the alloy sump or oil cooler and survived.
I'd expect that Rootes/Chrysler UK planned for the more-varied climate found across North America since many (most?) Alpines ended up here - some cold climes, some very hot.
But your AU experience throws a monkey-wrench into the equation. I didn't know Hunter GT's weren't fitted with aluminum sumps. Did all AU Arrow Range cars come with steel sumps?
I'd expect that Rootes/Chrysler UK planned for the more-varied climate found across North America since many (most?) Alpines ended up here - some cold climes, some very hot.
But your AU experience throws a monkey-wrench into the equation. I didn't know Hunter GT's weren't fitted with aluminum sumps. Did all AU Arrow Range cars come with steel sumps?
alpine_64
Donation Time
The post audux range alloy head cars we got here the hunter GT and Rapier fastback didn't have the alloy sumps as i recall.. i will check to be 100% sure.. but know that those are rare items down here where as the engines of hunters are not.. I have a couiple of Hunter Gt motors as spares and they are all steel sump.
65beam
Donation Time
cooler
when the alpine engine was being built the industry was dealing with an engine oil with an API engine oil service category of SB. the operating temp before degradation for SB was very low compared to todays oils. this category of oils has been obsolete since 1967. the next category of SC wasn't a lot better but we did see rootes drop the use of a cooler. we now are dealing with a category SN. todays engines operate at much higher temps than an alpine did. current oils have additives that control sludge that can restrict oil passages and clog the intake screen on the pump. they also are blended with far superior base oils that allow the oil to resist degradation from high temp operation. they also have far superior detergent and anti wear additives. the combination of the new group of base stock and additives provides excellent performance in both extreme cold and hot conditions. for even better performing oils I would suggest the use of a synthetic oil since they maintain their viscosity and resist oxidation better than conventional mineral oils. whether you need the oil cooler is your own choice based on how you use the engine. under normal driving conditions and normal operating conditions I see no reason for the cooler since the oils resist the break down that would occur with the now obsolete SB oil that was used when the alpine was being built.
when the alpine engine was being built the industry was dealing with an engine oil with an API engine oil service category of SB. the operating temp before degradation for SB was very low compared to todays oils. this category of oils has been obsolete since 1967. the next category of SC wasn't a lot better but we did see rootes drop the use of a cooler. we now are dealing with a category SN. todays engines operate at much higher temps than an alpine did. current oils have additives that control sludge that can restrict oil passages and clog the intake screen on the pump. they also are blended with far superior base oils that allow the oil to resist degradation from high temp operation. they also have far superior detergent and anti wear additives. the combination of the new group of base stock and additives provides excellent performance in both extreme cold and hot conditions. for even better performing oils I would suggest the use of a synthetic oil since they maintain their viscosity and resist oxidation better than conventional mineral oils. whether you need the oil cooler is your own choice based on how you use the engine. under normal driving conditions and normal operating conditions I see no reason for the cooler since the oils resist the break down that would occur with the now obsolete SB oil that was used when the alpine was being built.
There appears to be a lot of well thought out but differing opinions but I thank you all for the advice. I am running a 1725 engine in a SII Alpine that was not designed for an oil cooler. I am presently in the process of installing a NOS short block and am debating whether I want to re-install the oil cooler. The comment concerning pairing a new engine with an old oil cooler really got my attention. Would the fact that that cooler had been used in my car recently reduce the possibility of oil cooler contaminates damaging me new internals? Also, what weight oil is recommended for a new block? Thanks all!
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
For my Harrington Le Mans (HLM) I use Brad Penn 20/50W. It is designed for varying engine temperatures that might be sustained while racing and includes significant Zinc additive for protection of the metal to metal surfaces. It was also my choice for the engine break-in oil. A bit on the expensive side - but what the heck our Sunbeams are worth every penny we poor into them. Note: I have the original 1592 cc engine in my shop, but, choose to run a 1725 with dual Webers and a Delta K grind cam in my HLM. The original oil cooler, unique to the HLM, is also installed.
Attachments
65beam
Donation Time
cooler
my opinions come from several decades as an oil company rep. the thing you need to keep in mind on the new engine is to use ZDDP. this is the anti wear additive that is no longer in engine oils. if you don't use it in an engine with flat tappets the cam and associated parts will be the first thing to self destruct. you need at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP. there are two oils that are available at every big box store that have at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP. shell rotella T 15/40 has 1200 PPM and chevron delo LE 15/40 has 1300 PPM. multi grade oils from the majors such as Pennzoil, quaker state, Castrol, etc do not have ZDDP. some of the majors blend a racing oil that has some ZDDP but not all that you need. if you choose to use other oils from the majors go to an auto parts and buy the 4 oz bottles of ZDDP and add it to the oil you choose. make sure the oil you choose has an API category of SN. this is in the star burst emblem on the bottle. I poured Pennzoil 10/40 in the new engine in the series 4 along with a bottle of ZDDP. there are other blenders such as royal purple, brad penn and others that blend what they call a break in oil. it's high in ZDDP. I usually drain the oil after a few hundred miles and continue to use the same oil and also add ZDDP each time.
my opinions come from several decades as an oil company rep. the thing you need to keep in mind on the new engine is to use ZDDP. this is the anti wear additive that is no longer in engine oils. if you don't use it in an engine with flat tappets the cam and associated parts will be the first thing to self destruct. you need at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP. there are two oils that are available at every big box store that have at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP. shell rotella T 15/40 has 1200 PPM and chevron delo LE 15/40 has 1300 PPM. multi grade oils from the majors such as Pennzoil, quaker state, Castrol, etc do not have ZDDP. some of the majors blend a racing oil that has some ZDDP but not all that you need. if you choose to use other oils from the majors go to an auto parts and buy the 4 oz bottles of ZDDP and add it to the oil you choose. make sure the oil you choose has an API category of SN. this is in the star burst emblem on the bottle. I poured Pennzoil 10/40 in the new engine in the series 4 along with a bottle of ZDDP. there are other blenders such as royal purple, brad penn and others that blend what they call a break in oil. it's high in ZDDP. I usually drain the oil after a few hundred miles and continue to use the same oil and also add ZDDP each time.
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Eric, good call on the need for having a sufficient amount of ZDDP added to the oil we use in our Rootes engines. This is why I use Brad Penn (BP) Racing oil. It is already formulated and I know exactly how much ZDDP has been mixed with my oil. I've long known that the Chevron Delo I use in my F350 has a ZDDP rating of 1200+ ppm and I use it in my restored 1956 Massey Ferguson tractor. I could use Delo in the HLM, but, the BP "racing oil" makes me think I'm going faster in the HLM when I'm cruising around. Actually, I do think I'm providing some overheating insurance for the metal to metal moving surfaces if the engine were to get real hot.
Anyone that wants to check out the lab test results for BP Grade 1 Racing oil click on http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
Anyone that wants to check out the lab test results for BP Grade 1 Racing oil click on http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
