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No power to switch
- Thread starter M430
- Start date
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
This should get you started.
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/downloads/WSM 145 SV Manual/15 Electrical System (N-1).pdf
There's also a color-coded version floating around somewhere. It'll pop up in subsequent answers, I'm sure.
http://sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showpost.php?p=62140&postcount=7
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/procolharum/media/AlpineWiringDiagram-SV-color.jpg.html
Check the ground connection from battery to frame, and the ground connection from frame to engine. Then there are a few grounds specific to dash, gauges, etc. But verify the battery one first, at both ends.
Ignition switch would also be a candidate for inspection, but be systematic about it, starting from the battery.
Also many threads here on the site regarding systematic troubleshooting of non-start issues.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/downloads/WSM 145 SV Manual/15 Electrical System (N-1).pdf
There's also a color-coded version floating around somewhere. It'll pop up in subsequent answers, I'm sure.
http://sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showpost.php?p=62140&postcount=7
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/procolharum/media/AlpineWiringDiagram-SV-color.jpg.html
Check the ground connection from battery to frame, and the ground connection from frame to engine. Then there are a few grounds specific to dash, gauges, etc. But verify the battery one first, at both ends.
Ignition switch would also be a candidate for inspection, but be systematic about it, starting from the battery.
Also many threads here on the site regarding systematic troubleshooting of non-start issues.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
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RootesRacer
Donation Time
Check the fuse that has the green wires on it (I think its the green wires, no schematic with me...).
The battery goes to one of the two fuses and from there goes to the ignition switch and some light switches.
Blown main fuse? Nothing gets power, nothing.
The battery goes to one of the two fuses and from there goes to the ignition switch and some light switches.
Blown main fuse? Nothing gets power, nothing.
Even if the fuse isn't blown, also make certain it is making good contact. After 50 years the fuse box contacts can be corroded and/or worn to the point where they only occasionally make a good connection to the fuses.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
OK, so I found the schematic and I have it all wrong...
The brown wires on the fuse panel are the ones that come from the battery and they should be hot always (no fuse in line... Scary...).
If the car has a generator, regulator terminal "A" goes to the solenoid (and battery) with a heavy brown wire, terminal A1 goes to ignition switch pin 1 with a brown/blue wire. So if the regulator box is disconnected (A and A1) no voltage will appear on ignition switch pin 1. A to A1 terminals are essentially shorted (current sense coil for boosting regulator voltage with lights on) so they both will be at battery voltage.
Not sure how this occurs on an alternator equipped cat but I would expect similar.
The ignition switch pin 1 then routes to the unfused side of the cigar fuse terminals and and then also the light switches.
Since there is no fuse, a blown or missing fuse (either of them) will not prevent power from getting to the ignition switch.
The brown wires on the fuse panel are the ones that come from the battery and they should be hot always (no fuse in line... Scary...).
If the car has a generator, regulator terminal "A" goes to the solenoid (and battery) with a heavy brown wire, terminal A1 goes to ignition switch pin 1 with a brown/blue wire. So if the regulator box is disconnected (A and A1) no voltage will appear on ignition switch pin 1. A to A1 terminals are essentially shorted (current sense coil for boosting regulator voltage with lights on) so they both will be at battery voltage.
Not sure how this occurs on an alternator equipped cat but I would expect similar.
The ignition switch pin 1 then routes to the unfused side of the cigar fuse terminals and and then also the light switches.
Since there is no fuse, a blown or missing fuse (either of them) will not prevent power from getting to the ignition switch.
You say the battery is strong. How do you know? What instrument are you using? Or are you using a test light?
For checking a "no power" situation I would use a test light. And I would start at the large post on the solenoid where the cable from the battery is attached. Ground one end of your test light and check for power at that large post on the solenoid. If not then move to the battery. If yes, then move to the brown wires at the fuse block, if yes then test at the brown wire on the Ignition switch.
Tom
For checking a "no power" situation I would use a test light. And I would start at the large post on the solenoid where the cable from the battery is attached. Ground one end of your test light and check for power at that large post on the solenoid. If not then move to the battery. If yes, then move to the brown wires at the fuse block, if yes then test at the brown wire on the Ignition switch.
Tom
Tom,
I removed the battery and checked power. 13.8V. I also removed the ground strap and replaced with a new one which I had. I even tried a second battery. I have power at the large post on the solenoid but no power at the fuse block. I replaced the fuse with the paper insert with a 35A fuse. still no power. I do understand that brown wires at fuse should always be hot. I am using a volt meter, not a test light when checking power in all locations.
marvin
Marvin. Do you have an ammeter installed in the car? If so I suspect a loose connection at the ammeter. Unfortunately the color wiring diagrams that Ken linked do not show the ammeter. But if you look at fig 20a on page 25 of the manual section Ken also linked you can see that the ammeter is the only thing between the solenoid post and the fuse block.
If you do not have an ammeter installed, then there is just a brown wire between the solenoid post and fuse box. Must be loose at one end or the other, (or missing?)
Tom
P.S. I see from Mike's original e-bay listing for the car that it does have an ammeter. I suspect that's where the problem is. Most likely a loose connection at the ammeter.
If you do not have an ammeter installed, then there is just a brown wire between the solenoid post and fuse box. Must be loose at one end or the other, (or missing?)
Tom
P.S. I see from Mike's original e-bay listing for the car that it does have an ammeter. I suspect that's where the problem is. Most likely a loose connection at the ammeter.
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Tom,
I do have an ammeter, but it does not show on the wiring diagram I received from Ken yesterday. I did follow the brown wire from the solenoid and it leads to the ammeter. I will check that this AM. Thanks for the lead.
marvin
CRBASIN
Donation Time
You may also want to consider a replacement wiring harness and/or additional fuses. I purchased a replacement from Pete's Performance because of the tangle of unfused circuits in my car. In pulling out the old wiring, I found a few instances of melted insulation. I added a maxi fuse (50 amp) that protects all wires, except for the battery to solenoid cable. I replaced that cable as well, even though it looked good. On inspection out of the car, my neighbor the NASA engineer found a spot of hardened insulation and deemed the cable unsafe.
John
John
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Just as a reminder, exercise care when diving behind the ammeter in the dash. Make sure batt is disconnected until connections are verified, and ammeter is secured either in dash or held securely where it cannot flop about while under power. Things can get pretty tight back there, and inadvertent contact from the terminals to ground could get unduly exciting.
OK, thanks and will disconnect the battery first
Marvin, Yes, the ammeter is not on the common wiring diagram, But as I said it is on fig 20a on page 26 of section N in the WSM : via the link Ken posted earlier:
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/downloads/WSM 145 SV Manual/15 Electrical System (N-1).pdf
If you are going to be doing much with this Alpine, you surely should have WSM145, either in print or downloaded PDF (from this SAOCA website)
Tom
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/downloads/WSM 145 SV Manual/15 Electrical System (N-1).pdf
If you are going to be doing much with this Alpine, you surely should have WSM145, either in print or downloaded PDF (from this SAOCA website)
Tom
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65beam
Donation Time
power
I had the same problem with the series 4 prior to restoration. I found that the wires connecting to the amp guage were not tight ( push on terminals ). Due to the intermittent loss of power and we knew the car was going back to bare metal there was a simple fix. I went to the local parts store and bought a spade terminal to connect both wires together. I also crimped the amp guage terminals and used shrink tubing and everything was fine. Left it that way until we put the car back together. Just use a test light and check the wire coming from under the hood. if you have power connect the two wires and your problem should be gone. You can leave it that way or hook up the amp guage and see if the amp guage and everything else works.
I had the same problem with the series 4 prior to restoration. I found that the wires connecting to the amp guage were not tight ( push on terminals ). Due to the intermittent loss of power and we knew the car was going back to bare metal there was a simple fix. I went to the local parts store and bought a spade terminal to connect both wires together. I also crimped the amp guage terminals and used shrink tubing and everything was fine. Left it that way until we put the car back together. Just use a test light and check the wire coming from under the hood. if you have power connect the two wires and your problem should be gone. You can leave it that way or hook up the amp guage and see if the amp guage and everything else works.
Thanks Tom, I did make a copy of page 26, very different from the wiring diagram. However, the PO by passed three of the contacts on the ampmeter and is functioning as if it is not there. I have traced power from the battery thru the solenoid, thru the ampmeter, to the fuse box, to the alternator, etc. cleaning and sanding along the way. of the six contacts on the solenoid, two do not have power, one to the swtich, the second to the fuse block. Since all wiring is in such poor condition, I plan to rewire the car. Also, where can I get a hard copy of the Rootes Manual.
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Re: re-wiring... Don't take it out yet. There are some places you'll want to pull along new wiring, or a pull-string, as the old stuff comes out. The new harness will likely have some techniques and recommendations.
Grounds along the way will need the same attention you give the device contacts/connections.
A printed manual can be purchased from Classic Sunbeam. Sunbeam Specialties doesn't list the SV manual in their latest mailing, but they may actually have it, also.
Hang in there!
Grounds along the way will need the same attention you give the device contacts/connections.
A printed manual can be purchased from Classic Sunbeam. Sunbeam Specialties doesn't list the SV manual in their latest mailing, but they may actually have it, also.
Hang in there!
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
And, when re-reading your post... do you have power to and thru the ignition switch on the correct terminals?
Is it clear to you on the wiring diagram how to energize the ignition and actuate the starter by interconnecting various terminals of the solenoid?
(Commonly known as hotwiring....) I'm not sure of your familiarity with stuff like that, so I'm a little hesitant to suggest bypassing certain things in the troubleshooting process, lest they cause more problems than they solve. The process is not without risk to 'pine and limb, so maybe we shouldn't go there.
Does your solenoid have a rubber-covered button you can press? NOTE: Make sure car is out of gear and hand brake is on before you press it.
Is it clear to you on the wiring diagram how to energize the ignition and actuate the starter by interconnecting various terminals of the solenoid?
(Commonly known as hotwiring....) I'm not sure of your familiarity with stuff like that, so I'm a little hesitant to suggest bypassing certain things in the troubleshooting process, lest they cause more problems than they solve. The process is not without risk to 'pine and limb, so maybe we shouldn't go there.
Does your solenoid have a rubber-covered button you can press? NOTE: Make sure car is out of gear and hand brake is on before you press it.
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RootesRacer
Donation Time
Well...
There also will likley be a ground daisychain and gauge lamp feed.
Both needed for gauge illumination.
I too am puzzled about the comment about "three terminals bypassed" . I cannot imagine that the lamp socket wire was "bypassed" whatever that would mean. Same with the ground terminal. I would not recommend doing any re-wire until you figure out and fully understand what is there already and what is wrong. For example, you say that of the terminals on the solenoid two do not have power. Indeed the terminal with a red / wht wire should not have power. That is the wire FROM the switch that gets hot only when the switch is in the START position. You say the wire from the solenoid to the fuse box has no power. What wire is that? There should be no wire from the solenoid to the fusebox, All unswitched power to the fusebox should come from the ammeter.
Tom
Tom