More steering questions

[sunbby]

Tie rod ends, crossbar bushings, pits on the steering box worm & races, dry relay arm bushing.....and so on. As I have said over and over again, once you get these cars repaired correctly and everything is right on them, they drive like a dream.
(I smile when some owner finally understands what I've been saying)

I have been wondering about this very thing. My Alpine steers nicely, very smooth and easy. However, there is a little bit of play, almost like the dead center feeling on some crappy modern autos, but not quite. It doesn’t really wander while driving, but I can turn the wheel back and forth a little bit without causing the attitude of the car to change. When stationary I can move the steering wheel a few inches right or left before the wheels move, and it feels and sounds like it is taking up some slack somewhere. At first I thought it was a bad tie rod end. I could actually visibly see the play in one of the passenger side tie rods when someone turned the wheel. Well, I replaced the tie rod ends and while it made me feel more secure it didn’t really change the steering behavior at all.

I am planning on new cross tube bushings and thinking about redoing the steering box; I guess I will add the relay arm bushings to the list. However, I was wondering if this “dead center” play will ever be gone. Basically what should the steering feel like? Should it be very light (mine takes a pretty light touch with the stock 15” wheel)? How "tight", should there be any vagueness?

What about the feeling if certain things are worn or lacking lubrication? Is it possible to determine the problem component causing various steering issues by the symptoms?

Tie-rod ends cause actually darting when they get bad enough (although you should never let them get that bad).

Steering box issues? Difficult or heavy steering when worn, adjusted too tight, out of lubrication. What about too loose?

Relay arm pivot worn/dry?

Cross tube bushings worn?

Basically, since I work so slowly on things I would like to prioritize the items, so it would be nice to know what’s causing things and where I should eventually be in the end. I know I should just do it all at once, but I also know that’s just not realistic for me.

 

[wframe]

Replacing the cross-tube bushing made a world of difference when I did it a couple of years ago. I had a similar symptom: play in the steering wheel at center. I had also started getting a VERY bad wobble at 50-60 MPH. I believe that was a wear pattern on the tires combined with the slack in the cross-tube due to the bad bushing. The bushing were so bad you could see how oval the center hole was.

I must say, getting the cross tube off was quite a challenge as I recall. I actually made a tool to pull them off. I'll see if I can find it and post some pictures. Once I had this puller, it seem like I was able to just pop each end of the tube right off.

 

[mikephillips]

Good condition steering will have a bit of play, but not so much that it's really noticable. It should be fairly light, not stiff requiring 2 hands to turn.

One thing to keep in mind is that wear in each component is magnified by the whole setup. By that I mean that a little wear here and a little wear there adds up so that at the wheel you can feel the sum total rather than little bits.
It can be that you need new ball joints, new A arm bushings, and new wheel bearings as well as the already mentioned items. It's hard to diagnois exactly what you may need remotely like this, what I would suggest looking over the entire front end from wheels to steering and see what appears loose and mark it for replacement or rebuild.

 

[Bill Blue]

On cars with recirculating ball steering boxes, the "slop" in the steering wheel is about one - two inches. This is the amount that causes barely visible movement of the tires when the wheel is moved back and forth. I suppose the max amount is whatever you feel comfortable with. But much more than two inches means something needs attention.

Bill

 

[RootesRooter]

Unlike Jumpin Jan's enthusiasm about Alpine steering "...handles like a dream!", I've found that Alpines are a little vague. Even with all new components properly aligned, Alpines will tend to "hunt" on rutted freeways and, as you mentioned, the steering wheel turns about an inch or more before anything happens.

The steering box seems to have some designed-in slop, but the rubber crosstube bushings are probably responsible for more of the play.

Dick Sanders
Kent, WA

 

[Nickodell]

A couple of points:

1. While vague steering, "tramlining" (a tendency for one or both of the front wheels to follow streetcar lines, or differences in pavement height) and wobble are most often due to looseness and wear in the steering gear, it can also be due to incorrect alignment, most often toe-in;

2. Heavy steering ditto (especially wrong camber);

3. In order to isolate whether the play and loose motion is in the steering box or elsewhere, have a helper observe whether the Pitman arm moves while you move the steering wheel. If you can move it more than about 1" with no movement in the arm, the problem is in the box. If not it is somewhere else in the system.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I've had problems and I've suspected the box. I had the wheels aligned by one of the better guys in Atlanta and that's when I noticed a lot of play in the wheel. Before the alignment it pulled a little to one side so I felt something on the wheel. After the alignment there was no pull and so a lot of play; it felt like I had no control. As suggested on this forum I remove a shim from the box and it was tighter but the steering felt even worse. I took it back to Grand Tourismo months later after i got new tires and ask if they would take a look. I only waited for about 5 minutes when the Technician came out and asked if I had messed w/ the box. Like I had been caught doing something bad I said, with a little delay - - maybe. He then said "did you take out a shim or two?". I said again - - - maybe. He said "put it back in, your steering is so tight the wheels won't straighten out when I let go of the wheel". He said the alignment was fine and the rest of the steering was fine too. He also said no one sells a good rebuilt steering box no matter the type of car.

 

[sunbby]

Thanks for all the great responses! I think my steering is probably in the normal Alpine category and there is not much really wrong with it. The touch is pretty light and the play is only about an inch at the wheel. This play is definitely in the box as I can see that the steering arm isn't really moving until the play is taken up. Sounds like this is a normal recirculating ball type feeling.

It has been a long time since I've had a "vintage" car (an Austin Mini and a Volvo 122 back in high school) so I have a hard time remembering what they feel like; as opposed to my Lexus IS300 daily driver which is very tight. I guess I just have to drive the Alpine more.

 

[Nickodell]

As suggested on this forum I remove a shim from the box and it was tighter but the steering felt even worse. I took it back to Grand Tourismo months later after i got new tires and ask if they would take a look. I only waited for about 5 minutes when the Technician came out and asked if I had messed w/ the box. Like I had been caught doing something bad I said, with a little delay - - maybe. He then said "did you take out a shim or two?". I said again - - - maybe. He said "put it back in, your steering is so tight the wheels won't straighten out when I let go of the wheel". He said the alignment was fine and the rest of the steering was fine too. He also said no one sells a good rebuilt steering box no matter the type of car.

I didn't comment at the time, but thought that messing about with shims wasn't the best way to go and risked overdoing it. I fitted an adjusting screw to my box that allows "micrometer" adjustment. I jack up the front end and move the screw 1/8 of a turn in until I feel the slightest extra resistance at the steering when moved lock to lock wheel, then back it off until the wheel moves freely.

 

[Gary M]

Center cross tube

I replaced my worn out bushed cross tube with one of the ones with ball joints. Much less slop. The tubes are avialable from:

http://www.rootesparts.com/id103.htm

They are in Belgium and the prices are in euros. Easy to deal with and the part came quickly.