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Looking at a Mark 1A Tiger

C

ctcarguy

Donation Time
I am looking at a 1966 tiger I am thinking of purchasing. I have researched the VIN on Rootes1.com and it shows up having been in Michigan in 2011 (No TAC). I have been researching the details and am planning to look at the engine, transmission and differential numbers but I do not know how to trace them back to the VIN. To make things more confusing is that I sent an inquiry to Mr. Miller with the VIN and JAL numbers. He replied that the plates were "home made" before I sent any images. I then sent pictures of the plates and he said that it was a "non-factory built car" and "nothing he could be excited about." All of the pictures I have seen of the tags matches perfectly with the car so I am confused. I am also going to look at the lubrication locations since there is quite a difference between an Alpine and Tiger. All the other identifiers I have been able to research match up to this car. I am trying to find someone local (I am near Hartford CT) who has a 1A to compare it to before commiting to a purchase. Sorry to be so wordy but I want to be sure before I make the investment. Thanks.
Larry
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
Larry

Tigers dont have an engine number that ties it to a VIN. The id was just a sticker on the valve cover. A casting date on the block will relate it to a batch, not a car.

Doff and trans numbers relate to a guven vin.. But are often changed.

The body not driveline is the key to an authentic car. A 1A will have specific rivets holding the tag if it wasnt removed for a respray or other reason.

If the vin is homemade you would wonder why.

What's the cars number? Somebody may have the cars ownership history.
 
V

volvoguys

Diamond Level Sponsor
I suggest that norm's comments about the tags and "non-factory" build are a diplomatic way of saying the car is a re-bodied Alpine, not a Tiger. All the numbers can match up to a specific Tiger VIN but, as Michael said, its the body that makes it authentic. There are cars with crate motors, automatic gearboxes, Ford 9" rears and non-original VIN tags/rivets that are TAC'd and deemed authentic.

Many a buyer has been duped into paying for a car that looked legit only to later find out it was an Alger. True story: About 6 years ago I bought a Series IV parts car and the owner said he also had a reasonably priced driving Tiger for sale. A few days later we met and within minutes I had serious doubts about the car. The seller assured me he owned it for 20 years, that it was authentic and dismissed my suggestion he have it TAC'd. No way.

Last year a guy who lives a few hours from me came to my garage to buy some parts when I mentioned the supposed Tiger. My buyer knew the seller, his car and that the seller was well aware that it was a clone when he bought it. Buyer beware.

Mark ..... volvoguys
 
Warren

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
Several guys have lost VIN tags and since there's no secondary I.D. stamped into the body
making it easier to re shell a car. I have been a student of the topic since I had personal experience with them. I have even seen six figure cars with a replacement tag. Many many restored cars of other makes have a replacement tag. To buy a car without a TAC and solid history is not advisable. I'd call Randy aka 0neoffive or Clark CTtiger as they are in CT. "CAT user names,"
The Tiger ledgers are a closely held set of books. The way it works for the general population is to contact Norm, others call their pal at the archive or a other docent type. All that said there's more than several Tigers with the same rear axle number and the ledgers are scarred with red ink and a ? marks and look like a tradesman not an accountant did the filling in of the dime store looking bound tablets. I'd guess that after the 2 pint lunch things were a little sloppier..

A matching drive train is only persuasive evidence, if you are interested study the black car on BaT with the pie wheels and as it's got a lot of good shots, it's back on eBay as well.
Let's see the pictures of the tag.
Oh P.S. Google the VIN without the LRXFE and add Tiger, then go to the autotoxteamtiger web page and use the search function to see old posts in the oldest records
 
C

ctcarguy

Donation Time
Thanks Michael and Mark,
Determining if it is real seems to be a huge undertaking which I do not mind doing. What I need to find out is what to look for. I have seen many clones as a professional car appraiser which is why I will not authenticate any vehicles. The liability is just too high. In this case, this is a car I am considering purchasing so I want to do my due diligence. It seems that the information is limited and I understand why. In my experience, there is no such thing as a perfect clone. There is always some minor detail that the builder figures no one will know. It's just figuring out what it is.

The VIN is B382001090. The car was registered in Florida and Michigan as far as the title documentation. I would love to have it TAC'd but that does not seem physically possible. The owner supports the idea. He is just as curious as I am and has been very cooperative.

FYI - I did not send pictures of the body to Mr. Miller, only the plates.

As always it is buyer-beware!
Larry
 
C

ctcarguy

Donation Time
Thanks Warren:
I googled the VIN and found it only on the Rootes1 list. I also tried the VIN on Autox.tigerteam and it did not find it.
Larry
 
Jay Laifman

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
I agree with Mark's comment about Norm's diplomacy.

There are many big and small differences that these guys look for. There once was a list of those differences that got out, but most of the TAC guys keep the details as confidential as possible to avoid giving a checklist for builders to use. I know a few of them - but most can be recreated by any body shop - and some could actually be removed from the car from totally acceptable body/chassis work over the years.

Based on what you've said so far and the warning shots you've received, since you seem to care if it is a real Tiger or not, I don't see why you'd buy it unless a TAC inspector looked at it for you and confirmed.
 
R

RHFG

Donation Time
If the car has been re-bodied using an original Tiger as donor car which is no longer in existence then the car is a Sunbeam Tiger, just worth less than an unmolested original car. It won't drive any different being "factory original". Some of the welding from the factory was digusting especially around the floor/tunnel area. A re-bodied car gets the chance to be a lot better in some areas.
 
V

volvoguys

Diamond Level Sponsor
RHFG said:
If the car has been re-bodied using an original Tiger as donor car which is no longer in existence then the car is a Sunbeam Tiger, just worth less than an unmolested original car. It won't drive any different being "factory original". Some of the welding from the factory was digusting especially around the floor/tunnel area. A re-bodied car gets the chance to be a lot better in some areas.
Click to expand...
"then the car is a Sunbeam Tiger"? I emphatically disagree!

If you want to rebody an Alpine to a V8 (Alger) that's fine ....... there's plenty of them around. But leave the VIN in place and allow the Alpine to retain it's true namesake.
 
alpine_64

alpine_64

Donation Time
volvoguys said:
"then the car is a Sunbeam Tiger"? I emphatically disagree!

If you want to rebody an Alpine to a V8 (Alger) that's fine ....... there's plenty of them around. But leave the VIN in place and allow the Alpine to retain it's true namesake.
Click to expand...

I think RHFG was suggesting it cpuld have been a tiger body with anpther tiger id. So in that case... Yes a tiger.... But where is the donor vin... Stolen car? There are 2 cases of this on norms site
 
Barry

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
I think Russ (RHFG) was very clear and very correct.

"If the car has been re-bodied using an original Tiger as donor car which is no longer in existence then the car is a Sunbeam Tiger, ....."
​
Don't see where he said anything about an Alpine.

I would not buy any "Tiger" without being absolutely sure about the origin and history, especially the Serial and JAL #'s.

JMO, YMMV.
 
Last edited:
Warren

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
A homemade VIN tag car can be a TAC'ed car so can a state I.D. registered car as well as one with a Alpine VIN number. If you read and study the program as well as the listing of TAC'ed cars you can see for your self. I have seen cars with a homemade VIN tag sell for 6 figures as well as 36,000 to 70,000. Many many cars in the collector car marketplace have had a restored tag applied BUT those cars also have a secondary hidden VIN number generally speaking. A bay area restorer had tags made up and even had them machine engraved. Those tags were not silk screened but rather a ink product that faded rather quickly. I would pay 10,000 less or more if a car had a "homemade" tag or I would not buy it at all. Many good reasons exist and the most common is "the sandblaster obliterated it, the body shop lost it, I tore it off with a power buffer.... poop happens. Most states can track a car that has remained in their computers back to it's entry. I think our O.P. has dropped out on the CT Tiger . There is a really cheap one on Fakebook Tiger page in New Mexico.
 
65beam

65beam

Donation Time
Warren,
Sunbeam stopped stamping a second VIN number on the Alpine bodies with the end of series 2 production. This was after production was moved to the Ryton-Upon-Dunsmore plant. The bodies intended to be Tigers came off the Alpine line . FYI, there is a shop in Georgia that stamps VIN plates as long as you can provide a blank plate and proof of ownership. They can stamp the style of letters/numbers used on early Alpines and also Tigers or they can reverse stamp the style used on late Alpines and other Rootes cars. Normal cost is $20.00. Blank plates are readily available. Original rivets are still out there also. Send a donation.
 
V

volvoguys

Diamond Level Sponsor
Barry said:
I think Russ (RHFG) was very clear and very correct.

"If the car has been re-bodied using an original Tiger as donor car which is no longer in existence then the car is a Sunbeam Tiger, ....."
​
Don't see where he said anything about an Alpine.

I would not buy any "Tiger" without being absolutely sure about the origin and history, especially the Serial and JAL #'s.

JMO, YMMV.
Click to expand...
If Russ was suggesting that the supposed re-bodied car was an authentic Tiger then, yes, I would agree that it is still a Tiger. But the OP's original post was about how to determine if a car he was considering was an authentic Tiger and not a re-bodied Alpine.

If this is what Russ meant I apologize for my misinterpretation.

Mark ..... volvoguys
 
DanR

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Now this has been a very civil discussion:) Many thanks for all the great information which will be of benefit to all concerned,
 
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