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Let it snow ...

Nickodell

Donation Time
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – An unseasonal snow storm forced the cancellation of the opening stage of the Tour of California Sunday.

The race organizers delayed the original start time by almost three hours and agreed to shorten the 118.7 miles stage in the hope of getting underway if the severe weather conditions cleared up.

The 18 teams and 144 riders even made it to the starting line and were a minute away from beginning the race when the stage was officially abandoned.

“We were monitoring weather conditions up until start time, and we just couldn’t safely put the riders out on the course with the current forecast,†said Andrew Messick, president of AEG Sports, the race owners.
The eight-day event will now be held over seven days, starting Monday with a 133 mile (214km) ride from Squaw Valley ski resort to Sacramento.
“We, the riders, are disappointed about not racing for the fans,†said American Levi Leipheimer, a three-time winner of the race. “But we agreed it was too risky in the ever-changing weather.â€

Unseasonal snow and low temperatures were reported from California across the northern Midwest.


AlGore.jpg
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, your a chemist, you should be able to answer this question. What happens when you add heat to a system?

Bill
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Adding heat - or any other form of energy - increases the enthalpy of a closed system. Did I pass?

No. Like RooteRacer, you've defined adding heat. So one again, a restatement of the question: What happens when you increase the enthalpy of a system? The answer is not "It gets hotter", or any derivation of that statement.

Bill
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I don't even know what your talking about so this is just a guess, It expands.

Tom j

Very correct about 99+% of the time, there are a few weird metals that expand when cooled. Although it is not the answer I am looking for, the two are closely related.

The wording of the question might be throwing guys off, so I'll try this: What happens within a system when heat is added? The result is easily observable in every day life and no need to look farther than Mr Wizard or Bill Nye the Science Guy for the answer.

Bill
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Very correct about 99+% of the time, there are a few weird metals that expand when cooled. Although it is not the answer I am looking for, the two are closely related.

The wording of the question might be throwing guys off, so I'll try this: What happens within a system when heat is added? The result is easily observable in every day life and no need to look farther than Mr Wizard or Bill Nye the Science Guy for the answer.

Bill

Whats on your mind Bill?
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Very correct about 99+% of the time, there are a few weird metals that expand when cooled. Although it is not the answer I am looking for, the two are closely related.

The wording of the question might be throwing guys off, so I'll try this: What happens within a system when heat is added? The result is easily observable in every day life and no need to look farther than Mr Wizard or Bill Nye the Science Guy for the answer.

Bill

Adding energy to a closed system causes increased molecular activity. This may be observed by an increase in pressure, the emission of p.e. radiation such as light, and other phenomena. I'm also unsure what you're driving at, although I suspect a "gotcha!"
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Adding energy to a closed system causes increased molecular activity. This may be observed by an increase in pressure, the emission of p.e. radiation such as light, and other phenomena. I'm also unsure what you're driving at, although I suspect a "gotcha!"

No "gotcha". You came close enough.

The system becomes unstable. Observable in things as diverse as thermosyphon cooling of a Model T and explosions of nuclear waste. And our weather. When heat is added to our biosphere, climatic instability has to follow, especially as the heat is not uniformally gained. So unusual early snows, drought, monsoons, unusual heat waves, etc are easily explained by global warming.

Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Your reasoning is bogus. Firstly, the Earth is not a true closed system, since it is able to, and does, radiate electromagnetic radiation into space as well as absorbing it. Such radiation flows to and from the biosphere. The sun's e.m. radiation is not constant, but varies, accounting for phenomena on all planets: viz the melting of polar ice caps on Venus. In fact, whatever significant global temperature fluctuations have occurred are due to fluctuation in solar radiation quite irrespective of mankind. I'm talking about such things as the Medieval Warming Period - conveniently omitted from Algore's infamously dishonest "hockey stick" graph. And I don't call one degree in almost a century significant.

The same kind of "experts" who used the same kind of reasoning as the Global Warming fanatics - I'm sorry, now we have to call it Global Climate Change or some such nonsense after a series of record cold winters - do, predicted in the 1970s the coming of a New Ice Age.

More than 31,000 scientists, including eminent climatologists, meteorologists and physicists, including 9,029 PhDs and 9,738 with other advanced degrees and several Nobel Prize laureates, have sent a letter to the president denouncing plans to impose ruinous restrictions on the country, at a time when we are likely to enter a second, worse, recession, in the name of a false climate scare. Public opinion is swinging steadily the same way, resulting in Algore beginning to sound hysterical.

Finally, regarding your original question about global heat absorbtion and re-radiation; hot off the press:

New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism
NASA satellite data from the years 2000 through 2011 show the Earth's atmosphere is allowing far more heat to be released into space than alarmist computer models have predicted, reports a new study in the peer-reviewed science journal Remote Sensing. The study indicates far less future global warming will occur than United Nations computer models have predicted, and supports prior studies indicating increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide trap far less heat than alarmists have claimed.

Study co-author Dr. Roy Spencer, a principal research scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville and U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer flying on NASA's Aqua satellite, reports that real-world data from NASA's Terra satellite contradict multiple assumptions fed into alarmist computer models.

"The satellite observations suggest there is much more energy lost to space during and after warming than the climate models show," Spencer said in a July 26 University of Alabama press release. "There is a huge discrepancy between the data and the forecasts that is especially big over the oceans."
In addition to finding that far less heat is being trapped than alarmist computer models have predicted, the NASA satellite data show the atmosphere begins shedding heat into space long before United Nations computer models predicted.

The new findings are extremely important and should dramatically alter the global warming debate.

Scientists on all sides of the global warming debate are in general agreement about how much heat is being directly trapped by human emissions of carbon dioxide (the answer is "not much"). However, the single most important issue in the global warming debate is whether carbon dioxide emissions will indirectly trap far more heat by causing large increases in atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds. Alarmist computer models assume human carbon dioxide emissions indirectly cause substantial increases in atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds (each of which are very effective at trapping heat), but real-world data have long shown that carbon dioxide emissions are not causing as much atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds as the alarmist computer models have predicted.

The new NASA Terra satellite data are consistent with long-term NOAA and NASA data indicating atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds are not increasing in the manner predicted by alarmist computer models. The Terra satellite data also support data collected by NASA's ERBS satellite showing far more longwave radiation (and thus, heat) escaped into space between 1985 and 1999 than alarmist computer models had predicted. Together, the NASA ERBS and Terra satellite data show that for 25 years and counting, carbon dioxide emissions have directly and indirectly trapped far less heat than alarmist computer models have predicted.

In short, the central premise of alarmist global warming theory is that carbon dioxide emissions should be directly and indirectly trapping a certain amount of heat in the earth's atmosphere and preventing it from escaping into space. Real-world measurements, however, show far less heat is being trapped in the earth's atmosphere than the alarmist computer models predict, and far more heat is escaping into space than the alarmist computer models predict.
When objective NASA satellite data, reported in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, show a "huge discrepancy" between alarmist climate models and real-world facts, climate scientists, the media and our elected officials would be wise to take notice. Whether or not they do so will tell us a great deal about how honest the purveyors of global warming alarmism truly are.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Firstly, the Earth is not a true closed system, since it is able to, and does, radiate electromagnetic radiation into space as well as absorbing it. Such radiation flows to and from the biosphere. The sun's e.m. radiation is not constant, but varies, accounting for phenomena on all planets: viz the melting of polar ice caps on Venus. In fact, whatever significant global temperature fluctuations have occurred are due to fluctuation in solar radiation quite irrespective of mankind. I'm talking about such things as the Medieval Warming Period - conveniently omitted from Algore's infamously dishonest "hockey stick" graph. And I don't call one degree in almost a century significant.
A pan of water is not a closed system either, but put a lid on it and it boils sooner. Wrap it in insulation, it boils sooner. That earth's temperature has changed without man's input does not mean that man can have no impact or that it will not change because of our input. One degree per century is not significant? What do you call ten degrees per millenium?

The same kind of "experts" who used the same kind of reasoning as the Global Warming fanatics - I'm sorry, now we have to call it Global Climate Change or some such nonsense after a series of record cold winters - do, predicted in the 1970s the coming of a New Ice Age.
It matters not what a phenomenon is called. The New Ice Age (the warming years that preceded it) could very easily be viewed as the opening shot of a new round of Global Warming.

More than 31,000 scientists, including eminent climatologists, meteorologists and physicists, including 9,029 PhDs and 9,738 with other advanced degrees and several Nobel Prize laureates, have sent a letter to the president denouncing plans to impose ruinous restrictions on the country, at a time when we are likely to enter a second, worse, recession, in the name of a false climate scare. Public opinion is swinging steadily the same way, resulting in Algore beginning to sound hysterical.
It matters not what people think. For thousands of years, people thought the earth was flat. You know what? They were, to a man, wrong. The earth was round. Well not perfectly, perhaps everyone thinking it was flat created the earth's bulge. I'm not going to get involved in the politics or "economics" as this is not the forum and they have nothing to do with the scientific issue.

New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism
NASA satellite data from the years 2000 through 2011 show the Earth's atmosphere is allowing far more heat to be released into space than alarmist computer models have predicted, reports a new study in the peer-reviewed science journal Remote Sensing. The study indicates far less future global warming will occur than United Nations computer models have predicted, and supports prior studies indicating increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide trap far less heat than alarmists have claimed.

Better reread that paragraph. It does not refute Global Warming, only that it may not be occurring as rapidly as previously thought. Instead of heading for the rocks at 5 mph, it may be only 4 mph. But 5 mph or .5 mph, we are still heading for the rocks.

Scientists on all sides of the global warming debate are in general agreement about how much heat is being directly trapped by human emissions of carbon dioxide (the answer is "not much"). However, the single most important issue in the global warming debate is whether carbon dioxide emissions will indirectly trap far more heat by causing large increases in atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds. Alarmist computer models assume human carbon dioxide emissions indirectly cause substantial increases in atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds (each of which are very effective at trapping heat), but real-world data have long shown that carbon dioxide emissions are not causing as much atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds as the alarmist computer models have predicted.
Further admission that Global Warming is not occurring as rapidly as previously thought. No proof or claim it is not happening.

The new NASA Terra satellite data are consistent with long-term NOAA and NASA data indicating atmospheric humidity and cirrus clouds are not increasing in the manner predicted by alarmist computer models. The Terra satellite data also support data collected by NASA's ERBS satellite showing far more longwave radiation (and thus, heat) escaped into space between 1985 and 1999 than alarmist computer models had predicted. Together, the NASA ERBS and Terra satellite data show that for 25 years and counting, carbon dioxide emissions have directly and indirectly trapped far less heat than alarmist computer models have predicted.

In short, the central premise of alarmist global warming theory is that carbon dioxide emissions should be directly and indirectly trapping a certain amount of heat in the earth's atmosphere and preventing it from escaping into space. Real-world measurements, however, show far less heat is being trapped in the earth's atmosphere than the alarmist computer models predict, and far more heat is escaping into space than the alarmist computer models predict.

When objective NASA satellite data, reported in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, show a "huge discrepancy" between alarmist climate models and real-world facts, climate scientists, the media and our elected officials would be wise to take notice. Whether or not they do so will tell us a great deal about how honest the purveyors of global warming alarmism truly are.

More of the same. No evidence it is not happening, just not happening as rapidly as the alarmist thought.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE ALARMIST ARE WRONG.

Bill
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
When the proponents of any theory have to fake their data to make it conform to their prejudged result, one can safely assume that the theory itself is wrong. When the same people attempt to prevent scientific journals from publishing contrary data and conclusions, and email each other about how they hope nobody understands the Freedom of Information Act that will make their fakery available to all, when NASA itself issues bogus figures (see below) and demotes one of their own scientists who tried to blow the whistle, and moved him into a position where he would never be heard from again ... and much more ... one can safely assume that the entire premise of anthropogenic global warming is alarmist tripe. Tripe that makes a few people extremely rich, and gains multi-million $ grants to universities to study a.g.w., but zero to disprove it.

Global warming moved from the scientific to the political sphere 20 years ago, and political pressure from the White House down has had the expected result. 31,000 experts from every discipline involved in climatology, vs the IPCC, which is 85% politicians and the rest well-funded "bought off" scientists, and exists to extract billions of tax money from the developed nations to hand to others.

Unfortunately, NASA, together, as we now learn, the EPA - entities that should be totally science- and not politically-driven - have succumbed to the same political pressure. This week it was revealed that an EPA scientist was threatened if he released to the press his report, which was quashed by management, that global warming was a myth, and eventually reassigned to a department where he would not be heard from again.

Global warming fanatics have pointed to NASA as proof that their concerns about a warming planet are justified. They repeatedly cite the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, whose director, James Hansen, asserted: "Nine of the ten warmest years in history occurred since 1995, with 1998 the warmest," an assertion eagerly reported in the media. However, very quietly, NASA reversed itself, admitting Hansen's statistics were wrong. NASA now admits: "Four of the top ten years of recorded high temperatures were actually back in the 1930s, with 1934 the warmest; and some of Dr. Hansen’s previously cited warm years (2000, 2002, 2003 and 2004) were actually cooler than many years of more than a century ago."

More evidence of NASA's James Hansen's duplicity recently came to light. In trying to prove that 2008 was warmer than previous years, he actually had the gall to use average temperature figures for September 2008 and compare them with previous Octobers. Nobody bothered to challenge this liar, but just accepted his data. Not, that is, until U.S. meteorologist Anthony Watts and climatologist Steve McIntyre did an audit.

Caught out in the lie, the Goddard Institute at NASA, where Hansen works, juggled its books. To account for having carried the September figures over to October, it claimed to have discovered a new "hot spot" in the Arctic - in a month when satellite images were showing Arctic sea ice 30% more extensive than the same time in October 2007.

And when a subject like this leaves the scientific, and enters the political sphere (and the highly profitable: close to $40 billion tax money has been spent since 1990 on global warming research), the opportunities and motives for skewing and distorting data, and selectively omitting contrary evidence, abound. Algore's An Inconvenient Truth, of which more anon, is a perfect example. You may be familiar with his false "hockey stick" image (if not, I suggest you look it up) and graphs that purported to show global warming following increases in CO2, whereas the absolute reverse is the case - warming increases production of CO2 from increased microorganism populations in the seas, and accelerated degradation of dead plant materials.

Global warming alarmists ignore, or evade, such awkward facts as the greatly increased CO2 production worldwide for 30 years from 1940, when industry vastly accelerated due to the war and the postwar booms in the Americas, Europe and Asia, while global temperatures simultaneously fell.

While glaciers are indeed retreating in places - as part of the cyclical advance/retreat that has also been going on for millennia (they carved much of our landscape and valleys) - they are advancing or thickening in others. The BBC reported two years ago that surveys showed Greenland's ice is thickening in the interior (the places that people like Algore don't film). The former VP's film shows dramatic shots of massive chunks of ice breaking off glaciers, but this "calving" of icebergs is a normal, natural process, which has been carving our valleys for millions of years. The film doesn't mention, of course, that polar bears - far from dying off - are actually increasing rapidly after the US, Canada and other countries agreed to limit their greatest threat, hunting, or that - far from drowning as their ice floes melt - they are great swimmers and have been known to swim as much as 60 miles in search of food. Nor that glaciers are growing in Norway, New Zealand and even parts of the US. I spent some time in Alaska in 2007, and the US Forest Service was warning us that the Hubbard Glacier in the Tongass National Forest was advancing so rapidly that it threatened to close of a major fjord.

Gore also shows dramatic time-lapse photos of ice disappearing from Mt. Kilimanjaro, conveniently failing to mention that this has been going on for hundreds of years. Australia's Marine Geophysical Laboratory has publicly stated: "Gore's circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic." His film also show the likely opening of the Northwest Passage to shipping, due to ice melting, but conveniently doesn't mention that this was the case asrecently as the 1940s (and is an economic boon, by reducing shipping route mileage and time).

People babble on about the "greenhouse effect" of CO2. But of all the so-called greenhouse gases, atmospheric levels of this are minuscule, water vapor is much more prolific, and methane is some 30 times more potent as a greenhouse gas. Methane is produced essentially irrelevant of man's work, coming from the natural decay of organic matter and, especially, the gaseous emissions of the world's hundreds of millions of wild and domesticated ruminants. Cow flatus alone far surpasses in greenhouse gas effect all that produced by all American cars, trucks, buses and locomotives.

Lord Monckton used to be scientific adviser to Prime Minister Thatcher. After schools in the UK showed Algore's An Inconvenient Truth, several parents and Members of Parliament threatened to sue the (socialist) government for subjecting children to political indoctrination, complaining that their kids were panicking and weeping about dying polar bears, and having nightmares that they would soon be either drowned or roasted.

Monckton assembled a panel of eminent climatologists who essentially destroyed Gore's inaccurate and misleading movie.

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html

Since then, the BBC has screened two programs (one was “A Convenient Lieâ€) debunking Gore and his ilk. No TV station in the US will screen either program.

Gore, Hansen and most pro-warming speakers refuse to answer any questions on their assertions at press conferences or after they make their highly profitable speeches, and make sure that nobody with a contrary point of view can be heard. Last year Republican Congress members invited Lord Monckton, who flew from the UK at his own expense, to appear after Al Gore at the Energy and Commerce Committee hearing on climate. The Democrats refused to allow him to speak, so as not to embarrass Gore, whom they gave, of course, all the time he wanted. As Monckton said: “The Democrats have a lot to learn about the right of free speech under the US Constitution. Congressman Henry Waxman’s refusal to expose Al Gore’s sci-fi comedy-horror testimony to proper, independent scrutiny by the House minority reeks of naked fear.â€
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
In order to avoid a boring repeat of your post, I'll comment paragraph.

Para 1
Nice biased intro, devoid of any information or data.

Para 2. Continued, very biased intro, no information or data.

Para 3. Have you considered that his publication would have been an embarrassment to NASA?

Para 4. This refers to USA data. The world is much larger than the USA and we are talking Global Warming, not USA warming.

Para 5. Did the change in data compilation reverse the conclusion of the report? If it did not, it must be put down as a simple error.

Para 6. Data is data. Does the hot spot exist or not? If one is going to charge data manipulation, he must go through the data and publish the correct results. Until then, totally meaningless.

Para 7. As stated earlier, this is not the Forum for politics.

Para 8. There are a lot things that impact global temperatures. I refer you to your post of yesterday.

Para 9. What an individual glacier is doing is not terribly important. How about a compilation of major glaciers listed as growing or receding? That would mean something.

Para 10. What Al Gore says is immaterial. What his film says is immaterial.

Para 11. Interesting, but how does this prove the earth is not warming? Does it mean we should reduce the cow herds?

Para 12-on. What anyone says is not important.

In my former life as a parasite, I happened to hear this: "If you have the law, pound the law. If you have the facts, pound the facts. If you have nothing, pound the table."

You sir, are pounding the table.

Bill
 

Ron67Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Bravo Nick, quite correct on all points. This agw is so phoney. ANYONE who didn't fall asleep in basic science class, in Jr High School, would know it's bullc..p. There is no such thing as "scientific consensus". Science is made by tearing down "scientific concensus": all dinosaurs are cold blooded and grey/green, the continents are immobile, all the dinos died 65M yrs ago, the moon is a "blob" spun off the earth and created the Pacific ocean. All ideas commonly held, to be true, by the majority of the scientific community, until ripped down by some new idea or FACT that was initially ridiculed, by established scientists. He!!, even the speed of light is now being questioned, as an absolute, by some physists. If any FACT can be established, and duplicated, that contredicts any theory, the theory must be thrown out or modified to take into account that fact. The FACT cannot be "thrown out" because it doesn't fit the "theory". If the theory cannot be reconsiled w/the FACT, the theory is WRONG! The only "Proof" of a theory is it's ability to predict a future FACT. All predictions predicated on the hypothesis of agw have been WRONG, to date. The very FACT that original, unaltered temp data has been destroyed, throws doubt on any conclusion based on the altered data. I know I'd be in big trouble, if I ever destroyed of ANY of my original data.

Ron

As Dr. Ivar Giaever, a former professor with Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the 1973 winner of the Nobel Prize in physics, has said:
"In the American Physical Society it is ok to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible?" "I resign from APS," Giaever wrote.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-top-physics-group-over-global/#ixzz1YUkJ9LCd
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Ron, your comment about "Fact" is very interesting. Before there was Global Warming, the accepted "Fact" was our climate was static. The accepted "Fact" has changed. Are you saying it has changed due to data dumping and manipulation? That would mean that world wide, virtually every piece of data supporting Global Warming would be fraudulent. Simultaneously, data supporting a static climate would have been repressed. Do you really think the world wide scientific community is that corrupt?

If you have facts (contrary data summaries or evidence of mass data manipulation) I'm very willing to consider them. So far, Nick has not been able to get past the politics and has offered nothing of value.

Bill
 

Ron67Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Bill, you do not have to go any farther than 1st principals to come to the conclusion that AGW is a false hypothesis. Does climate change? Yes, one would have to be an imbicile to say that it doesn't. (Is the climate the same in your location as it was in the time of the Sabertooth or giant ground sloth?) Is it being caused by humans? IMO, doubtful, except in relatively small pockets (city heat islands for example). I'm not going to get into a review of all the scientific papers, here. If I did, I'd publish it. Any Soil Scientist that knows soil taxonomy, and can dig a pit, could tell you the exact climate conditions of that particular patch of ground, going back several hundreds to thousands of yrs, depending on the soil type and depth of the pit. Any competent geologist can tell you the general climate conditions, in the millions of yrs by studying rock strata. Weather cycles can be read in the rings of trees, by dendrochronologists, back thousands of years. The pattern of climate cycles is writ large in the geologic record. And what is written there is that the earth goes through cycles of "climate change" in patterns of decades, centuries, millennia and epochs.
I don't even doubt that some of the "data" that is being generated in support of AGW, is valid, as far as it goes. There's just more data that explains it better, as normal cyclic behavior. Example: Climate alarmists always point to frogs and salamanders as canaries in a mine. Because amphibians didn't die off during previous mass extinctions, but whole species are dying now because thier eco niche is changing. I have absolutly no problem believing that some species of frogs and salamanders are dying, because thier eco niche is changing. My question is how "new" are these species that are dying. Does thier DNA go back to previous epochs relatively unchanged or are there many changes in thier DNA that indicate that they are a relatively "new" species which has only recently developed to take advantage of an ephemeral eco niche. If the former, that may be data that may indicate a generalized climate problem. If the latter, it's just a case of a weak overspecialized species that has exploited a temporary eco niche and is doomed to go extinct, wether humans are extant or not. Now does the researcher deliberately go to an ephemeral eco niche because he knows any unique species there is doomed to extinction, and publishes w/o giving this important data or does he do the requisite DNA analysis to show this is a stable long estalished species population. Besides, the probability of falsified data, too many AGW "researchers" are not giving all the data.
It's long been a maxim w/evolutionary biologists, "the evolutionary race is won by the generalist, not the specialist."
In my field, I've been accused of "scientific misconduct" because my experimental results didn't agree w/my "scientists" theory, who had his entire grant riding on positive results. I performed a small experiment that explained why my results were different. The upshot is that I'm still employed at the same Lab (33yrs) and my "scientist" went somewhere, else. And I'm still using that small experiment to test the results of other researchers experiments.
If humans are changing the global climate, please explain the medieval warm period, followed by the dark ages cooling, followed by the Renassance warming followed by the little ice age, followed by the indultralized warming and now being followed by a global cooling. Even one of the major pushers of AGW now admits there has been cooling in the past 10yrs, but he says that after another 20-30yrs it's going to warm again. That sounds like a natural cycle, to me. Please explain the silver mines, in Switzerland and farmsteads, in Greenland, being uncovered by melting glaciers that the AGW crowd claims have been there for millinia, or they did until these artifacts were discovered.
Whatever is driving these cycles, sun cycles, deep ocean currents, sun spots, gamma rays, earth wobble, tectonic movement, volcanos, God or alien spagetti monsters, it's been driving "climate change" since the beginning and the little ants, called humans, ain't been around that long.
When talking about the scruples of "scientists" how about the theory of Phrenology. There was "scientific consensus" that you could measure the intelligence of an individual by measuring the bumps on his skull. Many respected "scientists" made their fortunes and reputations by this "theory". Now the only believers in this "theory" wear swastikas and SS emblems.
The very idea that all or most "scientists" absolutly agree on anything is absurd, and a "theory" that has as many holes as agw is just dying to be shot down. In my experience, "most scientists" are absolutly ignorant when it comes to fields outside their specialty, and generally defer to other specialists, w/o much thought. I'm pretty convinced that the only reason agw has not already been thrown in the same dustbin as phrenology is due to politics.
As I mentioned in my previous post. Other than to continue to collect data that ALL agree, there is really only 1 method to "prove" a "theory" and that is to make predictions of new facts that can actually be validated. Can you name 1 prediction, of fact, from the agw crowd, in the past 40yrs, that has actually come true? Other than Al Gore is one of the biggest producers of hot air.
Ron
Carbon Dioxide is plant food, not a pollutant.
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time
I remember when I first read that Yahoo-sourced "news story" about the "New NASA data" a week or two ago. I couldn't help but notice that the phrase "alarmist computer models" seemed to be pasted into every other paragraph.

I've read since then that the "alarmist computer models" the article referred to was a single study done by the U.N., and that the NASA data does not refute in any way the overall body of science on global warming.

But, that's just what I read somewhere...
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Ron, I'm in general agreement with all that you posted. Let me add this.

While the climate is changing, I see no particular reason for mankind to add "pollutants" (yes I know, one species pollutant is another species desert) that we know are capable of changing the climate. Yes, the climate will change, why should we hustle it along its way? I think we owe it to our descendants to leave them a globe that is as good as, or better than when we found it. What we found is treating us pretty good. We are not doing that.

As to predictions, meteorologists cannot tell us what tomorrows weather will be. That is with years of studying an ever changing mixture of the same parameters. How can we expect a climatologist to predict mixtures that have never been seen?

I think we've pursued this far enough.

Bill
 
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