Lake house

Jim E · Jun 30, 2009

So Ken you saying I could go with on of the smaller units like this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TITAN-TANKLESS-...66:2|39:1|72:1205|240:1308|301:1|293:1|294:50

I did not know there was a home service larger than 200 amp and I have installed several. Hard to believe a 1000 some odd sq ft house could need more than 200 amp, then it is all electric.

When I lived in HI kept noticing these black plastic 55 gallon drums on peoples roofs and could not figure out what they were for, finally smeone told me, solar water heater. Guess some used it to preheat and lots used it as the only source of hot water. Pretty low tech.

The other electric powered item I need to start figuring on is the HVAC. So far have called two companys for estimates and no result, go figure. A frined of mine does HVAC and he does side jobs... said would be about $5k. The house has no duct work never did. But $5k seems steep, then he did just build a new BBC drag motor and think he is looking for a sponsor for that new aftermarket block. When I had HVAC install in my house it was about $3k So am starting to think about running my own duct work and buying a unit off craigs list then having someone come look at it and charge the ac side. Have done ducts for forced air heat before and watched Dad install a gas furnce back when I was small. Anyone on here know about HVAC? can I use between the floor joice [sp?] for cold air return. Imagine I can find something online about this a sizing the unit.

Ken Ellis · Jun 30, 2009

Jim, if this place has basically two or three rooms, you might want to look at 'mini-split' systems. They're very much like hotel hvac devices, except they are two separate parts, connected by pipe and wire. No big hole in the wall. They have heat pump models, which may be appropriate for your heating loads down there. Install is pretty easy. One for the main room, one for the bedroom.

Geothermal is basically free heat and cooling, except you need to pay to get it out of the ground so you can use it. Higher installed cost, but potentially lower operating cost vs. gas or propane... but vs. plain electric heat, I'm not sure. Could you get away with using the nearby water as your cooling source -- either direct or via heat exchanger?

On your water heater, I'll bet Titan has some sort of calculator on their website to help zero in on the appropriate size. Plan ahead for hot tubs, car washing, etc...

Ken

V6 JOSE · Jun 30, 2009

I have had to live with a smaller heater, so I have found the best thing to do, is go with the biggest one you can afford. It will perform better and you wonÂ´t mind living with it. On the other hand, a bit too small one will always barely perform and youÂ´ll wish youÂ´d gotten the bigger one to start with. The difference is small, but the satisfaction is great.

Jose

wipeout · Jun 30, 2009

What's all the fuss about? Learn to like cold water. Problem solved and all the money I saved you can go into the "Get Wipeout A Bloody Car" fund.

sammaw@bellsout · Jun 30, 2009

I would say it depends on how much you intend on using the lake house. I have one that I try to get to on Saturdays or Sundays, mostly from March to November. Its about 650 sq ft ( a cabin, really) and we use a window unit for AC and have a couple milkhouse heaters for the cooler nights in march or October. I usually winterize the pipes by Thanksgiving, so I rarely stay over night in the winter, but even the milhouse heaters will keep it a tolerable 50's even on very cold nights. (That and a few toddies and you feel nice and warm, till you have to go outside to relieve yourself.)

Nickodell · Jun 30, 2009

Jim: Can you get propane delivery to the site? If so it will simplify your heat and hot water needs and eliminate any need to uprate your electrics. I've already described the Bosch tankless water heater.

In the great room we also have a log-effect fire, running from the same 200-gallon propane tank. Firstly, it really does look realistic, and gives that cosy appearance in winter that central heat can't. Secondly, it has variable heat output; at maximum it puts out, as I recall, at least 25,000 (maybe 30,000) BTUs. At full blast it not only heats the great room, but with doors open virtually all that level in the house. Turned down to the minimum, it still toasts you if you have the chairs and couch within 10 feet.

The one we have is vent-free, meaning that 100% of the heat is used and none is wasted up a chimney. Also, it will work OK with a "fake" fireplace (with no chimney stack), although ours is in a real fierplace with the damper closed off. Some local codes won't allow vent-free fires because of a concern about carbon monoxide, but all modern log-effect fires have air sensors that will turn it off if the Co level rises or the O2 level drops. The only concession I make is always to have doors open, and to have a CO detector discreetly near the fireplace.

You can even get them with remote controls for the terminally lazy.

Jim E · Jul 4, 2009

I can get propane just not sure I want to, the electric coop here is pretty cheap compared to where I live and a couple other places I have where there is only electric.

Pretty much no choice on the electric upgrade it has a 20 amp service and I have already removed all the wiring except for one outlet.

Place does have a private well and I am going to connect it to the public water so could do some sort of geo thremal heat and air, just not sure about the cost of the systems and if this well has the output to meet the needs. The well is a inch and a half hand driven deal.

How am I going to use it is the real question. Keep it, rent it or sell it... if I keep it want it to be a little above a cabin type deal so it would get central heat and air, rent pretty much the same thing but really do not want to rent it so that leaves sell it. Which is what is most likely what is going to have to happen, so it needs to be nice to get it to the selling point I have in mind but I need to do it with out killing the ROI. So I need to put pretty good stuff in it but not the best stuff.

Jim E · Jul 25, 2009

Went the other day to get the permit for the electric upgrade and.... got to talking to the inspector and when he found out I had gutted the place they upgraded my permit to a reconstruction or remodel or some such permit. They also were real interested and schedueled an inspection an hour later... so the guy shows up passes me on the framed walls and tells me what my next inspection will include... electrical, plumbing and HVAC ducts... and it all has to pass before drywall.... I did not know I needed the reconstruct permit when I started, oh well at least it will be legal.

skywords · Jul 25, 2009

Hi Jim
Everytime I have tried to cheap it with HVAC it bits me in the ass. I cheaped it with my house by using a used gas pack and installation by the three stooges and now have 400+ electric bills in the summer and countless repair bills and poor performance. I would have been money ahead to have a licensed and bonded expert come in a do it once using all the air flow formulas and new duct work. Spend some time and find out who the real experts are and use them.

I tried the cheapo route with my bus AC and same drill. Now 3K later it is done right and I drive down the road cool.

Jim E · Jul 26, 2009

Talked to a 'friend' who does HVAC for a living and he said it would be around $5k to do the whole job. I thought that was a bit pricey then he is a drag racer and I did not know he was building a new BBC race motor at the time I ask him about doing the job. Figure he may have been looking for a sponsor, should have ask if at that price I got my name on the car. hahahahahah I am no HVAC expert and will take your advice and keep asking around.

wipeout · Jul 26, 2009

Jim,

In this present economy, those that WANT have the power over those that DO. Get at least three, five would be better, estimates on what you need done. Once you get your estimates make sure that the low bidder has the complete scope of work. It is a common tactic, especially now, to shortside the bid and re-scope once the work begins.

I would be very skeptical if the low bid is 30% of the high bid. Pro's in your area should be hungry and very close to their bottom lines right now, so I think your bids should be very close. Home owners can be their own worst enemies when going cheap.

I've been a builder for twenty years and know most of the tricks to getting "in the door". Alot of hanky panky is going on now. Many of what I use to consider "above board" contractors are "having" to do things they would not normally do. Like paying workers under the table, hiring illegals at less than market wages, using "change orders" to boost the bottom line, not carrying the required insurance and so on.

Just be careful as the owner builder of your new permitted project. You don't sound like the kind that can be "baffled with b*llsh*t", but keep your wits about you and deal in common sense numbers.

sharong · Jul 26, 2009

Jim,
I am not sure how it works in your area, but once you get the building to a point where you are looking to do the HVAC check in to someone who can do an energy audit for you. In my area they can come in, look at the size and layout of the building and let you know where you need intake and exhaust vents and the size of system you need to heat and cool your building. Some state agencies will do this for little or no cost and with the resulting info you can lay out/install your system or hire a professional knowing if they may be shorting their bid. I have used this procedure a number of times in the past and it has worked out very well for me.
Sharong

wipeout · Jul 26, 2009

Energy calcs are generally required by most states as part of the permit. The fact you have a permit to do it without one means the contractor will have to submit them. They generally don't bother with this procedure until they signed a contract with you, so Sharong's advice is a good one. It should help you in keeping the playing field level.

Generally speaking, the energy inspections I've been involved in are based more on what could be improved upon..i.e., leaky ducts, windows and doors...and not too specific to what size pump, seer, pressure, temp ratios, air quality and a myriad of other issues when designing a retrofit system.

Take a wander through this link and it should prepare you for this wonderful adventure.

http://www.eeba.org/resources/consumer/existing/index.html