Just viewed an Alpine...is it worth the asking price?

[Nick Farrow]

Hi everyone,

I don't know how much you guys can help me on this as you're mostly in the US where car values seem to be completely different to ours in the UK, but you might be able to give me some insight. I posted this post on the SAOC forum, but it seems to be all but deserted so I'm not expecting an answer any time soon, which could end up being too late! Anyway, here's the post, hope you can help.....

I've wanted an Alpine since I can remember, but have bever been in the market to buy a good one before, that is until now. I'm only really interested in the SIs-SIIIs and I've got a budget of around £7000.

Today I went to see my first one - it's a Red '63 GT with an asking price of £6995. I know this is going to be a very difficult question to answer, but I need to know if it's worth that much. I looked over the car thoroughly for about an hour checking all the places I think I should have and this is what I found:

The car had apparently had a bare-metal respray about seven years ago, and this showed! The paintwork was lovely and I simply couldn't find a blemish anywhere on the exterior. I spent a long time examining the underside of the car. The whole car had been undersealed (not great IMO as underseal invariable causes more trouble than anything else), but the underseal looked absolutely spotless and was black and still supple, unlike the brown crumbly underseal you get on some old cars! There was absolutely no corrosion. I checked all round the sills, the cross-brace, wheels arches etc. The door gaps looked OK, although they were not 100% perfect, but the gap (which was small) was even rather than being proud at the bottom or top. The owner said the car had never been used in the rain and the condition of the car backed this up. All in all the exterior was practically faultless.
The interior is a slightly different story. The things I noticed were that the dashboard had a couple of cracks in the veneer, both seats looked tatty and worn and the drivers seat had a tear. The rear 'seat' was also very tatty and the side trims in the back had broken away from their fastenings. The carpet, although it didn't look too bad, was loose and flapping about here and there. The steering column shroud also seed to have an extra hole on the left hand side for some kind of stalk which was not present and there seemed to be a large gap between the edge of the shroud and the steering wheel.
While driving I noticed that the oil pressure seemed fine and the temperature stayed below 90deg. I did notice that the speedo was way out, registering about 60mph when travelling at about 40mph. I also noticed that there was a yellow light that stayed on next to the clock in the centre - I quizzed the guy about it, but he didn't really seem to know what it was!!!
Under the bonnet things were fairly clean, but not matching the exterior - obviously the bare metal respray didn't go this far. There was no visible rust, apart from on the top of the cross member, but this was just a bit of surface rust. The engine was a non-standard 1725cc with twin Zenith Strombergs.

All in all, I was impressed with the exterior, but not so with the interior and under-bonnet. I've owned several classic cars since I was 17, but I have no experience with Alpines, so I would just like to know if this car is or isn't worth what they are asking. As far as I'm concerned, for £7K I'm expecting the inside to match the outside in quality, but I may be way off the mark!

If anyone could give me a little input on this, I'd be really grateful as it's a lot of money to spend and I don't want to get it wrong!

Cheers

Nick

 

[tony perrett]

I would have thought that the price was rather high for a car as you describe. Do you think that the underseal could have been applied recently? I get the impression that you are not completely happy with it but at that price, you should be before buying. Also, it is never a good idea to buy the first car that you look at - you need to make a few comparisons. Do you know of an Alpine owner in your area who could look it over for you? AA Report?

 

[husky drvr]

Just for perspective >

1.00 GBP Pound Sterling = 1.975371 US Dollar



6995 * 1.975371 = approximately $13,820 USD


Definately not small change.


Good luck.

 

[Nick Farrow]

I would have thought that the price was rather high for a car as you describe. Do you think that the underseal could have been applied recently? I get the impression that you are not completely happy with it but at that price, you should be before buying. Also, it is never a good idea to buy the first car that you look at - you need to make a few comparisons. Do you know of an Alpine owner in your area who could look it over for you? AA Report?

Hi and thanks for the response!

I don't think the underseal is recent. It's definitely good, but not brand new. I'm not completely happy with it TBH, but there don't seem to be any other series I,II or III for sale anywhere nearby which I can compare it to. Unfortunately I don't know anyone local tome with an Alpine either! I am trying to arrnage to see one which is in Holyhead, but that is a 10 hour round trip, so if it's not up to par it's gonna be a big wast of time/money!

How much do you think it should be worth (if it is as I described (not that I'd be able to knock the seller down by much, he seemed pretty rigid on what he 'thought' the car was worth.))?

Cheers

Nick

 

[Bill Blue]

Nick, I don't think you are going to have many direct responses to your question. The Alpine market, at least on this side of the pond, is pretty quirky. I will say that here, an Alpine at that price should be a very nice car indeed, with few, if any rough spots.

I think you should check out all of the Alpines you can find. Even if you are interested only in the early models, it will give you a feel for the market. Then it will be up to you to decide if the additional cost of this car (if indeed it is higher than comparable cars) is worth it to you.

Bill

 

[Nick Farrow]

Nick, I don't think you are going to have many direct responses to your question. The Alpine market, at least on this side of the pond, is pretty quirky. I will say that here, an Alpine at that price should be a very nice car indeed, with few, if any rough spots.

I think you should check out all of the Alpines you can find. Even if you are interested only in the early models, it will give you a feel for the market. Then it will be up to you to decide if the additional cost of this car (if indeed it is higher than comparable cars) is worth it to you.

Bill

Thanks Bill. I think for £7K I should be getting a car with no rough spots either, I just needed someone to set my mind at ease so to speak! I really wish I could convince the seller that they've priced the thing too high, but unfortuanely he's someone who doesn't know anything about the market (or about his own car really!). He priced it up on the recommendation of his local mechanic, who apparently valued it at £7500! Maybe when no-one buys it at that price they'll drop it to a more reasonable level! I'm gonna see if there's ANY Alpines locally I can have a look at!

Cheers

Nick

 

[65sunbeam]

Hi Nick
Are you a member of the SAOC? You should attend their National which is coming up this summer and see plenty of Alpines in one location-some of which may be for sale. There are many fine members in that club and the best buy for you may be from a fellow club member or someone they know of. Take a knowledgeable member with you to check out any potential purchases too. Trying to place a fair price on a car in the UK vs the USA is about impossible. Alpines almost always sell for considerably more in your fair country.....cheers! Eric

 

[tony perrett]

It is not possible to give a value without seeing the car, but remember that a car (or anything else for that matter) is only worth what someone is willing to pay. Irrespective of what the owner thinks it is "worth", the rules of the marketplace apply. Is the seller private or a dealer? If you are spending that sort of money, maybe you should look at what dealers have to offer as they have an intimate knowledge of prices and for your peace of mind you should get some sort of Warranty. Did you ask how long the owner has had the car? It is possible that he paid too much, found it not to his liking, and is trying to cover his losses. The valuation (which I have just seen) given by his mechanic may have been for Insurance purposes. This bears little relationship to what he may expect to sell the car for - it is the cost of finding or preparing a car in similar condition in the event of total loss.

 

[Nick Farrow]

Is the seller private or a dealer? Did you ask how long the owner has had the car? It is possible that he paid too much, found it not to his liking, and is trying to cover his losses.

He's a private seller and he's had the car since 1991. I don't think he's trying to cover any loses or anything like that, I think he just has no idea what the thing is worth. I quizzed him quite thoroughly, asking the usual questions like was he a member of any clubs, did he go to shows, what other classics had he owned. He told me he'd never been to a show, never been a member of a club, never had any other classic and had pretty much bought it cos it was a nice sportscar! He also has a wife who kept standing around (and obviously wore the trousers) and as soon as I started talking about money, stepped in to take over the negotiations! I offered them £6K for it, but they wouldn't budge below £6650. Now that I'm home and have had time to mull over what I've seen, I think I really should have offered £5500 at most! Don't get me wrong, it is a lovely looking car and the bodywork is pretty sweet, but i have seen fully restored cars (that are unfortunately now sold!) go for about £5K-£6k. I guess the search goes on!

 

[tony perrett]

It might be worthwhile you going to the SAOC Spares Day at Coventry next Sunday - there should be some cars to see and enthusiasts to speak to. Details are on the website.

 

[Nick Farrow]

I think I might! I going to have a look at a Series IV that's advertised on the SAOC website tomorrow....Same sort of price (£6450)so shoud make a good comparison!

 

[Alpine Addict]

Without seeing the car it is difficult to have an idea of its condition. I do think based on your description you could find a better car for that money.

Also is the respray really as old as the owner states?

 

[Stevew]

Hi Nick

I think you've answered your own question for £7K you really should be able to find some thing quite special that you don't have any doubts about. A visit to a local area meeting might be a good start , talk to a few owners re what they have paid and about any cars they know that SAOC members might be about to sell, the tip about spares day was also good as I know a few good cars will probably be present for sale at less than you have been quoted (SIV & V). You would also be welcome at this years national which isn't too far away from London we are holding it at The National Motor Museum in Beaulieu this year over the 1st,2nd&3rd of August why not pop down on the Saturday and compare cars, talk to some of the members it would probably give you a better idea of what you can get for your money. Details of Local area meets & the National booking for can be found on the SAOC web site.

Good Hunting

Steve

 

[howard]

The steering column shroud also seed to have an extra hole on the left hand side for some kind of stalk which was not present and there seemed to be a large gap between the edge of the shroud and the steering wheel.

Is the hole for the overdrive switch? And the gap might be because the adjustable steering wheel is pulled out. (I'm just speculating...)

 

[Bill Blue]

Is the hole for the overdrive switch? And the gap might be because the adjustable steering wheel is pulled out. (I'm just speculating...)

Series II steering wheels are not adjustable. But who's to say it is a Series II wheel?

Bill

 

[husky drvr]

Nick,

The info on the serial number tag would help identify the car and options. The engine number might be of some help as well because of its being different.

Example for s3 with High compression engine and OverDrive as built for home market with standard specifications ( HRO )

B920xxxx H OD HRO

Colour Code 39 - Carnival Red

Series II steering wheels are not adjustable. But who's to say it is a Series II wheel?

Bill

Bill,

I think it is a series 3 because it is a GT. The page on s3 production build dates also indicates all s3 production occurred in 1963. I's and II's were not available as GT or ST.

As to the yellowish light on the dash, could that be the s3 opal OD indicator light?

I wonder if the original trans was changed out along with the engine for a later model unit?
Does the trans shift pattern have reverse on the lower left or the lower right?

Which leads to the question about even having an OD at this point if the car was originally equipped with one?

 

[Nick Farrow]

Thanks for the replies!

Somehow I managed to forget to look at the chassis and engine numbers, although I meant to! I think that when the engine was replcaced the gearbox (transmission) was probably replaced too. The reverse I remeber was down and towards the right. If the transmission had been changed, I think this would also explain why the speedo is wildly incorrect. The engine could be from any number of Rootes cars, so I suppose it could be an inappropiate no-close ratio transmission!!

Looking at a photo of the dashboard on the website the car is for sale on, I can see that when I said the orange light was next to the clock, I was actually wrong. It's actually next to the ignition!

I may be wrong, but I think this is the ignition light, and if it's on all the time it would suggest that there is a problem with the charging circuit! If someone could confirm that, I'd be grateful!

It's dissapointing that the car isn't quite up to par 'cos it looks absolutely stunning from the outside, but I think I've made the right choice by letting it go. IMO I think it probably needs the entire interior restored, which could cost a small fortune!

 

[mikephillips]

The orange light started out as red, they all tend to fade as they get older, but yes that's the ignition light and means that something in the charging circuit isn't functioning.

 

[tony perrett]

You will probably soon get a call from the seller offering the car at your bid price when they realise their mistake. I think that you have made the correct decision in letting it go.

 

[Nick Farrow]

OMG, I think the world has gone mad....or maybe it's just me! I've just got back from viewing Alpine #2 - a 1965 Series IV. This car was advertised at £6450, but I think £2450 would be closer to the mark! This car was listed as:

'Fully restored with new hood, carpets, front wings, seats, battery, brakes. brake servo, and lots of other parts. Gear box has been reconditioned with new clutch and is fitted with overdrive. Engine is a reconditioned 1725cc Holbay with twin 40 Webber carbs.'

If there was a part on the car that had been restored, I certainly couldn't find it! There was rust in all the normal places....although it had been well covered with underseal, but it was there. The paintwork had obviously been painted with rattle cans! The engine wasn't even runinng! It had no gear knob and the carpet was all over the place. I've got no idea where the wheels were from, but they were 15" with ridiculous tyres that virtually touched the arches!

The Series III I viewed yesterday needed some improvements, but this one needs a complete restoration! I can see finding a good one is gonna be more difficult than I thought!