Holbay Engine on eBay

[ceecpa]

Found this engine and I'm planning to bid on it after I get some information from the seller. I've asked for the engine serial number, as it appears to be a Series 5 engine, but the number will confirm that.

I was getting ready to build a Chevy rod engine but Holbay is a well known high performance outfit and it seems worthwhile to me.

I'd appreciate any comments about using an engine like this in a rally/autocross/track day Alpine.

It'll probably be expensive

Chuck Edwards

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270519966846&_trksid=p2759.l1259

 

[serIIalpine]

I would want some proof of actual Holbay components contained in the engine.
The block is an aftermarket Chromidium block manufactured in 1985 probably in Iran.

How do I know this? I have the same block.

If it's a true holbay tuned engine I would imagine it's worth more than $2000 in parts and machine work.

Good luck

 

[RootesRooter]

I've forgotten. What does it take to get to 1840cc? Hillman Avenger pistons or something? Isn't that like at least 60 over?

 

[hillmanhuskyguy]

Looks like in one of the photos it gives the cc's and
mentions standard size valves. So would that be Holbay
standard size valves or Rootes ?
Gotta confess I haven't studied up on this at all (I'm trying
to resist further temptation), but they've got to be bigger if it's a Holbay right ??

 

[alpine_64]

Looks like in one of the photos it gives the cc's and
mentions standard size valves. So would that be Holbay
standard size valves or Rootes ?
Gotta confess I haven't studied up on this at all (I'm trying
to resist further temptation), but they've got to be bigger if it's a Holbay right ??

the holobay H120 motors with the holbay head used a standard size valve but they were hollow and sodium filled.

This engine has been rebuilt by Holbay. They used to offer 3 stages of tune even during the 90's.. at a guess id say this is a 120HP one given the cam.. the motor is likely to have a stock rootes alloy head reworked. it wont be the same chambers as the H120 holbay heads. So this motor might have different sized valaves.. whereas a stock holbay production motor has stock sized valves IIRC.

 

[RootesRacer]

Port sizes seem to look right (in comparison between int and exh ports).

1840 IIRC is a stroked 1725 with like .060 over bore, running 1496 (short) rods.

Holbay called it the "marathon" IIRC.

 

[H One-Twenty]

As has already been mentioned, it most likely has a stock 'Rootes' head that has been modified by Holbay (the picture showing the manifold gasket looks like it has larger intake than exhaust ports).The original Holbay heads as fitted to the Hunter GLS and Rapier H120 have been unavailable for a long time. I suspect that if someone had sourced an original head then it would be sporting the original 'Holbay' valve cover too. It has the 'correct' mechanical advance distributor though, and being a later block it has the mounting holes for the Alpine GT (fastback) engine mounts.

I have a similar motor built for a Hillman Hunter rally car, though built in the mid-nineties by Holbay from a core rather than new parts. It produces 135BHP (claimed, not tested). Not much below 3000 RPM, but pulls very strongly above and has been 100% reliable. I much prefer the 'standard' Holbay spec for street use. However, if you're planning to use this ebay motor for autocross/rally then it's a good buy... if it's all it's claimed to be. It's also been sitting for a while so would likely require a complete stripdown and reassembly before use. I've spent over $1K on headwork and machining on my recent Holbay rebuild so this motor is a good buy anywhere south of $2K IMO

 

[Rootes 66]

Chuck
My 2p worth
First of all Holbay would never let an engine through the doors with a paint job like that, It looks like a home refurb to me.
I'm going to suggest the head IS an holbay head, an (AM3) casting and a mid range code number (p6633).
The Block is fine, chromidium blocks were used throughout the arrow range and were favoured by engine builders if they could find one, for overboring as there was a belief that the cylinder wall thickness was greater on these blocks,
Holbay engines had hollow pushrods and Stellite valves.
Stickers say holbay components (tape) could be from around a parcel, and as others have said the only real way of telling is to strip it out.

The engine with the Avenger pistons was the 200BHP 1922cc engine.

Pete

 

[hillmanhuskyguy]

One day left and it's up to $860.oo with 4 bids.
I understand it's whatever the market will bear with something like this, but what's your gut feeling tell you this is worth without the benefit of a teardown inspection ?

 

[RootesRacer]

One day left and it's up to $860.oo with 4 bids.
I understand it's whatever the market will bear with something like this, but what's your gut feeling tell you this is worth without the benefit of a teardown inspection ?

Value? Well if I was building a holbay, thats a good value I'd say to spare me from gathering the parts (the head is really tough to get), and machining ETC would surely cost more than what the final bid probably will be.

I would definitely do a teardown, what will it cost to do that?
A few gaskets and time assuming you find no ills internally.

You can assume at the very least that the cyls have a light rust coat, as may the lifter bores.

But then again, you could find way worse...

I bought a few motors from an estate sale 5 years or so ago, they all looked nice on the outside.
One particular motor was obviously well loved and reconditioned.
Popped the head and discovered water had gotten into one cylinder and hosed that cylinder completely, which of course ruined the motor.

 

[puff4]

Your statement about water getting into the cylinder and 'ruining the motor' made me smile... back in 'the day' all the best racers used to take bare blocks and either bury them in the dirt or dunk them in a lake for a year or so before dragging them up and machining them. The theory was that the rusting surface-hardened the steel and stress-relieved the metal, too. I did that myself with an Austin Healey motor one time, and I must say, that damned motor never did break, despite my best efforts!

 

[RootesRacer]

Your statement about water getting into the cylinder and 'ruining the motor' made me smile... back in 'the day' all the best racers used to take bare blocks and either bury them in the dirt or dunk them in a lake for a year or so before dragging them up and machining them. The theory was that the rusting surface-hardened the steel and stress-relieved the metal, too. I did that myself with an Austin Healey motor one time, and I must say, that damned motor never did break, despite my best efforts!

Keep in mind that ruin in this case meant corrosion of the liner that a .090 overbore couldnt have cured.

I have heard similar toughening techniques, though I think the rusting as a fix is folklore. I doubt rust on the surface could to anything but bad due to pre-existing stress risers getting a dose of hydrogen embrittlement.

One thing I am inclined to believe is that letting the castings sit are around for a LONG time prior to machining tends to settle out dimensional shifts.

If you want to reduce surface stresses then best to shoot the block inside and out with steel shot right after smoothing out the casting with a hand grinder. I do this on all my rocker arms, never done it on a block though.

 

[alpine_64]

Keep in mind that ruin in this case meant corrosion of the liner that a .090 overbore couldnt have cured.

I have heard similar toughening techniques, though I think the rusting as a fix is folklore. I doubt rust on the surface could to anything but bad due to pre-existing stress risers getting a dose of hydrogen embrittlement.

One thing I am inclined to believe is that letting the castings sit are around for a LONG time prior to machining tends to settle out dimensional shifts.

If you want to reduce surface stresses then best to shoot the block inside and out with steel shot right after smoothing out the casting with a hand grinder. I do this on all my rocker arms, never done it on a block though.

Im sure you guys know about the BMW F1 turbo engines from the 80's.. how they used to go find seasoned high millage blocks to build the qualifying motors out of as they figured all the problmes would have occured by then..

 

[ceecpa]

I didn't buy the Holbay because my wife didn't want to have to deal with having to get the revs up so high to launch it. So, we're going ahead with a Chevy rod engine and I sent the camshaft to Delta this morning for a KB grind.

I have a KB grind in an MGB and it's ever so slightly rougher at idle than stock, but produces nice torque from about 1,200 rpm on up to 5,500+.

I bought an original Hobourn-Eaton oil pump on eBay because I like to replace as much internally as I can, if the replacements are good quality.

I have 6 Chevy rods, so if anyone needs 2 let me know.

I plan to overbore 0.040.

I'll run the car with a 32/36 Weber because I'm uneasy about the potential leak spots of the Strombergs letting drips hit the exhaust manifold.

I got a rebuilt Series V overdrive from Jeff in England.

Once the cam is back from the West Coast the engine will go to the machine shop for degreasing, align-boring, new cam bearings, new freeze plugs, the overbore, and the adaptation of the Chevrolet rods to the crank.

My measurements of the crank journals indicate 0.005 wear, so I'll go with at least a 0.010 undergrind. I plan to reread the two articles on Chevy rod engines because I think I remember that de-stroking, as needed, can be accomplished that way.

We hauled this Series V block from Al Mason's digs in Ohio on the snowiest weekend I can remember in 20 years and got trapped in the District of Columbia in rush hour.

I've heard it said that a tough start is a good finish so we're looking for great things from this engine.

Chuck Edwards

 

[RootesRacer]

My measurements of the crank journals indicate 0.005 wear, so I'll go with at least a 0.010 undergrind. I plan to reread the two articles on Chevy rod engines because I think I remember that de-stroking, as needed, can be accomplished that way.
Chuck Edwards

If you are going with the chebbie rods, did you get the 2.100 journal rod, or the 2.000?

Not even sure if you can get the 2.100 (AKA large journal) rod big ends down the bores even with the belt sander treatment.

Most chebbie 6 cyl rods are 2.000 so you are in for MUCH bigger grind than .010.

Keep in mind that you will now be going with chebbie rod bearings, not rootes.

 

[Bill Blue]

When the journals are being ground to fit the Chevy rods is a good time to contemplate what you want to do with the stroke as you are probably going to end up with custom pistons. You can gain almost an eighth of an inch, which is good if your looking at off the line performance. I think Jim E. said the offset grinding cost was pretty reasonable.

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

When the journals are being ground to fit the Chevy rods is a good time to contemplate what you want to do with the stroke as you are probably going to end up with custom pistons. You can gain almost an eighth of an inch, which is good if your looking at off the line performance. I think Jim E. said the offset grinding cost was pretty reasonable.

Bill

Hell with .125 difference between the alpine and chebbie journal, you can get nearly 1/4 inch stroke improvement.

Thats gonna really hurt the piston speed on the top end though and definitely puts you into custom pistons.

 

[ceecpa]

The Chevy rods are 2.100 inch. I didn't realize they came with different big end diameters.

The outside width of the Chevy big end is 3.270 and I measured my SV bores at 3.215. With a +0.040 overbore the bores would be ~3.255, so I'd have to grind 0.015 of the outside width. It appears that there's that much "slough" on the rods.

If I have to use custom pistons then perhaps .050 overbore is something to consider. The Holbay engine was probably a .060 overbore but that seems to make the piston walls too thin. I don't want to produce a one-life block - although why I'm not sure.

 

[RootesRacer]

The Chevy rods are 2.100 inch. I didn't realize they came with different big end diameters.

The outside width of the Chevy big end is 3.270 and I measured my SV bores at 3.215. With a +0.040 overbore the bores would be ~3.255, so I'd have to grind 0.015 of the outside width. It appears that there's that much "slough" on the rods.

If I have to use custom pistons then perhaps .050 overbore is something to consider. The Holbay engine was probably a .060 overbore but that seems to make the piston walls too thin. I don't want to produce a one-life block - although why I'm not sure.

Pay attention to what rings are available, not so much what you WANT the bore to be.

The hot ticket for some of us is 82.5mm rings, which puts you at 3.247 or 37 over.

There are some rather nice rings available in that bore as opposed to the cast iron and chromium plated rings that are available in the std English bores.

 

[ceecpa]

Talked to the machine shop today and they think the Chevy rods are a good choice. They said that if the rods won't fit through the bore it can be put together like a motorcycle engine. (Come to think of it, I think this is how my Subaru would have to be assembled.) They agree with having pistons made.

They showed me a 1922 Singer automobile engine they just built. It has only 2 main bearings and idles at about the speed of a Chesapeake Bay Deadrise boat motor - slowly.