High time engines

[beamdream]

Just a heads up for those of you who have engines with high mileage and associated symptoms of rattles with low oil pressures etc.

My Series 1 engine has an unknown history but exhibited the classic signs of getting weary with rev drop at idle when dipping the clutch, oil pressure down to 10psi at idle, complemented by the symphony of piston slap and various rattles when warm.

Driving down the highway the other day and it finally let go with a squeal, rattle and deep internal knocking sound; coasted to the side of the road and trailered it home. On stripping the engine I found the #2 big end slipper bearing had spun around, damaging the crank pin and distributed shiny bits through the oil and into the sump.

None of this was entirely unexpected so I kept dismantling for a rebuild, lo and behold, what really took my breath away was the state of the cam lobes, every one of them looked as though moths had been at them with major breakdown and complete wearing away of patches on the hardened cam surfaces.

Now I would not attribute this to the engine failure, but rather, the long term wear and tear of the cam itself; it is well known that the oil products in recent years have lost there zinc and other products which contribute significantly to cam wear, but I have to say that compared to other wear indications within the engine the cam has much more severe wear than anything else. The cam followers were not much better with chips and cracks around there bases, but the cam bearings were quite good for their age.

In retrospect I would say that if the bearing hadn't let go then probably in the near future I would have had a cam or follower failure; so the message is, if for any reason you have the side plate off an engine with a few miles up, or an unknown history, it might pay to lift the followers out and just have a peek at the cam lobes, you might get a shock.

 

[mferris]

Sorry to hear about your trouble.

Of course this was like watching an ad for a new drug. I read all your high mileage engine symptoms and now I'm worried that I'm going to fall apart now too!

Off to the doctor for a prescription/diagnosis I guess.

 

[johnd]

Out of curiosity was there enough stock left on the cam lobe that operates the fuel pump to allow the fuel pump to operate or were you using an electric pump?

 

[Mark B]

I read your post and chuckled because you describe my engine so perfectly. Piston slap and low oil pressure, idle drops and all of the signs of a long-in-the-tooth engine. It was an unknown when I rebuilt the car in 2000, and I fully expected it to last months, and here we are nearly 15 years down the road. I have been overly religious about oil changes, and the front main leak assures quite a bit of fresh oil per month is needed as well a a quick view of the condition of the oil in the sump when it dumps a patch upon shutdown.

That said, it is somewhat disconcerting to drive knowing it could pack it in suddenly. I must admit over the last decade or so, I have become complacent and the haunting feeling has become distant because of how reliable this worn little beast is. It is quite a robust "agricultural" design in some ways, and seems to want to run forever in less than ideal conditions. I certainly do not baby it at all and it has been very communicative as to its aging over the years in terms of noises, smells and smoke.

Your post reminds me to remember what I am asking from this engine and perhaps to take a peek at the internal time bomb and get one of the engines lying around up to speed to replace this one, potentially before I need to call a tow truck.

Good luck with your rebuild or replacement and thanks for the post.

Mark B

 

[RootesRacer]

I read your post and chuckled because you describe my engine so perfectly. Piston slap and low oil pressure, idle drops and all of the signs of a long-in-the-tooth engine. It was an unknown when I rebuilt the car in 2000, and I fully expected it to last months, and here we are nearly 15 years down the road. I have been overly religious about oil changes, and the front main leak assures quite a bit of fresh oil per month is needed as well a a quick view of the condition of the oil in the sump when it dumps a patch upon shutdown.

That said, it is somewhat disconcerting to drive knowing it could pack it in suddenly. I must admit over the last decade or so, I have become complacent and the haunting feeling has become distant because of how reliable this worn little beast is. It is quite a robust "agricultural" design in some ways, and seems to want to run forever in less than ideal conditions. I certainly do not baby it at all and it has been very communicative as to its aging over the years in terms of noises, smells and smoke.

Your post reminds me to remember what I am asking from this engine and perhaps to take a peek at the internal time bomb and get one of the engines lying around up to speed to replace this one, potentially before I need to call a tow truck.

Good luck with your rebuild or replacement and thanks for the post.

Mark B

Mark, I'd be more than willing to help/mentor your engine rebuild.
I've built 3 rootes engines in the past.

 

[Series3Scott]

This is a shameless plug for the guy who rebuilt mine. He may not want the work so I don't know if he's "open for business" but Jan Servaites in Dayton, Ohio (aka Jumpin Jan) put together one heck of an engine for me. It's been used hard for 10+ years and still pulling strong! I highly recommend him and would definitely want him to rebuild another one for me.

 

[GlennB]

Rebuilding engines

just a comment on rebuilding engines, we think that there is a major issue with replacement timing chain tensioners generally available in the UK. We don't know who is the main source, but several new engines have failed after 500 miles. We are recommending folks to re-use their old one. if it lasted 50 years it will last a few more. That's will give us time to get the right details out of the Rootes Archive for reman. I will have to strip down my new motor, I felt that the new tensioner was a bit softer than my old one but didn't think any more about it. make sure you have a good quality tensioner ready for any rebuild. GB

 

[beamdream]

Out of curiosity was there enough stock left on the cam lobe that operates the fuel pump to allow the fuel pump to operate or were you using an electric pump?

Yes I have the mechanical pump and the lobe wear was what I would consider to be normal, given the age of the engine. I am of the opinion that the wiping action of lobe on lifter was the main cause of trouble, this is now a well known fact attributed to the change in lubricant properties in recent years.

 

[RootesRacer]

just a comment on rebuilding engines, we think that there is a major issue with replacement timing chain tensioners generally available in the UK. We don't know who is the main source, but several new engines have failed after 500 miles. We are recommending folks to re-use their old one. if it lasted 50 years it will last a few more. That's will give us time to get the right details out of the Rootes Archive for reman. I will have to strip down my new motor, I felt that the new tensioner was a bit softer than my old one but didn't think any more about it. make sure you have a good quality tensioner ready for any rebuild. GB

Not sure if the mode of failure is the same, but here in the U.S., the available rubbing blocks expand in oil and wear rapidly or otherwise fall apart.

Agree with keeping the old one in service, provided its in good condition.

 

[beamdream]

I read your post and chuckled because you describe my engine so perfectly. Piston slap and low oil pressure, idle drops and all of the signs of a long-in-the-tooth engine. It was an unknown when I rebuilt the car in 2000, and I fully expected it to last months, and here we are nearly 15 years down the road. I have been overly religious about oil changes, and the front main leak assures quite a bit of fresh oil per month is needed as well a a quick view of the condition of the oil in the sump when it dumps a patch upon shutdown.

That said, it is somewhat disconcerting to drive knowing it could pack it in suddenly. I must admit over the last decade or so, I have become complacent and the haunting feeling has become distant because of how reliable this worn little beast is. It is quite a robust "agricultural" design in some ways, and seems to want to run forever in less than ideal conditions. I certainly do not baby it at all and it has been very communicative as to its aging over the years in terms of noises, smells and smoke.

Your post reminds me to remember what I am asking from this engine and perhaps to take a peek at the internal time bomb and get one of the engines lying around up to speed to replace this one, potentially before I need to call a tow truck.

Good luck with your rebuild or replacement and thanks for the post.

Mark B

Yes I think we are talking mirror image here, like you I had a head in the sand attitude and expected it to last forever, having said that I will echo your sentiments on what a sturdy unit these engines are, and, with regular maintenance will seemingly go on forever.

 

[pcmenten]

beamdream and Mark B,

Which brand and type of oil are you using? Cam failure has become such a common occurrence and I'd be curious to know the conditions of their oil.

I'm considering sending off my cam for 'cryo' treatment in an attempt to prevent premature failure. Lifters (followers) and rocker arm shafts, too.

Paul

 

[beamdream]

beamdream and Mark B,

Which brand and type of oil are you using? Cam failure has become such a common occurrence and I'd be curious to know the conditions of their oil.

I'm considering sending off my cam for 'cryo' treatment in an attempt to prevent premature failure. Lifters (followers) and rocker arm shafts, too.

Paul

Given that I knew I had a tired engine, my choice of oil for the past couple of years has been 20w50 from reputable name brands; I have been religious with oil and filter changes every 6 months even though my car usage is low, my logic being oil and filters are still the cheapest maintenance insurances around.

I would hazard a guess that the cam wear is due as much to the engines longevity as well as the lubricant issues, so in terms of paying out for preventative cures perhaps you need to ask for how long and, how much, you are going to use the car.

From the rebuild perspective, the replacement cam will be getting a good coverage of break in compound on the lobes prior to engine start; its generally accepted that the first few hours of engine running is the time excessive wear commences if not properly lubricated.

 

[Chazbeam]

mine looked good on last rebuild

Sorry to hear that .Dont know how much different the engines got around series 2 but Its a strong little bugger...
So I was concerned about this too but on the last rebuild after a valve seat dropped into the engine on inspection things looked really good...
Bored out to 040 and replaced all the bearings and back together she went....I was actually quite pleased with all the miles i have on it that it held up so well...I was using a lead substitute the whole time i have had it..(not religiously though)
And using Rotella T straight 30 weight (not always as on the road i had to top off)...I don't like the multi grades..the straight grade keeps the oil pressure up higher on idle... And i was thinking that on an older engine to go up to 40 grade even.. but so far runs great and strong but kinda vibration prone at around 1000 RPM and just under...other then that smooth but i think this may be carb sync issues still the vibration has always bugged me...Also the vizard mod i will do might take the compression ratio down a notch and smooth things out as well.(im hoping).seems i am on the high side as far as compression goes anyway from the new pistons at 040...and not well balanced across the cylinders either. still quite good though..

Even my timing chain tensor was like new...(engine was rebuilt before i got her) could be new old stock one..I do seem to get a bit of noise from it though.(at least it sounds like timing chain noise..I thought this was normal though...I am curious what you guys are hearing...Should i worry?

Another thing that bugs me is the way the oil tube coming out of the lifter cover just opens to the road and the valve cover filler cap lets air in ...on doing the valve adjustment the other day i thought i felt a bit of grit in spots...

Was their supposed to be a filter inside the valve cover cap?
... this open system i feel can let too much road dirt in...whats your thoughts on that? think about it dirt would fall with falling oil from the rockers and where does it go? right down onto the cam through the lifters....then drops to the pan to be filtered after the pump.(pump wear) ..all that grit wear makes me cringe...


Chaz

 

[RootesRacer]

Chaz, you can convert to the later PCV system.
As an SII, you would need an SIII zenith intake or go to the solex 2bbl setup.
You would use the later closed oil filler with outlet vent (with flame trap) as well
as a later side cover.

You can also add venturies to your exhaust to allow PCV that doesnt force the intake to consume the fumes.
You would still need the later closed oil filler, flame trap and side cover.
Moroso and other make the exhaust venturies (PCV evac).


IMHO PCV was the difference between 50k mile engines at the beginning of the 60s and 100k mile engines towards the end of the 60s.

 

[beamdream]

Chazbeam - interesting about your vibration, I experience similar behaviour at fast idle perhaps its an inherent design thing, my having to retighten the generator mount bolts from time to time bears this out.

As to the timing chain noise, well I did find that the little ball valve was stuck in the end if the spring of the oil pipe which lubricates the timing chain. The rubbing block wasn't too badly worn so I don't know what impact this may have had, however the thought occurred to me that if the ball valve wasn't seating this may contribute to low oil pressure.

Perhaps someone else might like to chip in here; it appears that by design the ball is jammed into the end of the spring, given that its such a minute assembly I cant see how it would be effective in seating and stopping oil flow when its supposed to. Do I recall seeing a thread somewhere in the past to do away with this feature ??

 

[beamdream]

Just a follow up to my little saga, despite my very best efforts in correctly clocking the oil pump / distributor drive I managed to install it one tooth off, well I suspect one tooth.

Attempting to start up produced a series of backfires and so on and it soon became obvious where the problem lay. Rather than take the sump off and correctly reposition the oil pump, I elected to shift the plug wires in the distributor cap and with a small adjustment to the distributor body, away it went.

So I thought if I shared this with you it might assist someone else later on; things I learnt are:

1. despite my careful inspection of the distributor drive slot at the 10 to 2 position it was obviously off

2. make a template to fit over the distributor studs so you do get the 47 degree positioning of the slot, eyeballing it isn't accurate to pick one tooth off

3. being one tooth off on the oil pump drive will of course put the timing out, but shifting the distributor wires one place, and a small rotational adjustment of the distributor body was all it took to get it right

Hoping that none of ever have to use this info, but here it is just in case.

 

[Chazbeam]

great advice

Thats great advice...I was thinking going this route...But i have to say the chrome filler cap has always just thrilled me.. the thought of putting that ugly one on makes my face scrunch up in disgust....I was thinking i could devise a filter out of a few i see at the auto-zone that could be modified and then go with a PVC setup to the manifold to provide a bit more suction then just the road wind...I think i see an access port on the bottom center of the manafold though.(seem to remember it was a flooding drain). or i could drill and tap one...I have an extra manifold too...

Chaz

Chaz, you can convert to the later PCV system.
As an SII, you would need an SIII zenith intake or go to the solex 2bbl setup.
You would use the later closed oil filler with outlet vent (with flame trap) as well
as a later side cover.

You can also add venturies to your exhaust to allow PCV that doesnt force the intake to consume the fumes.
You would still need the later closed oil filler, flame trap and side cover.
Moroso and other make the exhaust venturies (PCV evac).


IMHO PCV was the difference between 50k mile engines at the beginning of the 60s and 100k mile engines towards the end of the 60s.

 

[Chazbeam]

same happened to me once

I kind of did the same but i did remove the pan (to check something else) to correct it then i realized all this time i had done what you did and was compensating for it like you did till this new rebuild...

great that you can compensate and this has such wide adjustments...

Good to know info for all of us....

Cheers
Chaz

Just a follow up to my little saga, despite my very best efforts in correctly clocking the oil pump / distributor drive I managed to install it one tooth off, well I suspect one tooth.

Attempting to start up produced a series of backfires and so on and it soon became obvious where the problem lay. Rather than take the sump off and correctly reposition the oil pump, I elected to shift the plug wires in the distributor cap and with a small adjustment to the distributor body, away it went.

So I thought if I shared this with you it might assist someone else later on; things I learnt are:

1. despite my careful inspection of the distributor drive slot at the 10 to 2 position it was obviously off

2. make a template to fit over the distributor studs so you do get the 47 degree positioning of the slot, eyeballing it isn't accurate to pick one tooth off

3. being one tooth off on the oil pump drive will of course put the timing out, but shifting the distributor wires one place, and a small rotational adjustment of the distributor body was all it took to get it right

Hoping that none of ever have to use this info, but here it is just in case.

 

[beamdream]

Yeah not hard to get it wrong, I have had cam / oil pump out a number of times so felt confident that I was on top of it; just goes to show what over confidence will do.

 

[65beam]

engines

a mutigrade oil such as 20W50 is an SAE 50 with the pumpability properties of an SAE 20 at 0 degrees. there is some zinc in todays oil. it averages about .085 % by weight. every auto parts ( auto zone, advance, napa, etc ) sells ZDDP in various size bottles ranging from 4 oz on up. a 4 oz costs maybe $4.00 so there is no reason to not have ZDDP in the engine.