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Gearbox Ford Sierra MK1

pruyter

Donation Time
Hi all!

Some time ago I approached this forum with questions about a Ford V6 conversion on the Alpine of a friend. With this information my friend started looking for a complete Ford drive line. Well he actually acted that fast that he is now since yesterday the owner of a complete 1984 Ford Sierra MK1 with the 2.3 litres V6 engine.
My question is: is it possible to use the gearbox that is originally installed in this Ford Sierra?
Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Peter
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Anything is possible with the proper motivation, time and money.

This model was never introduced in the US so I am not 100% certain on the specifics but to me there are 3 possible transmissions it could be:

1) a Rocket box derivative 4 speed with integral shifter.
2) Cologne derivative 4 speed with external shifter.
3) Early Type N/9 5 speed with integral shifter.

IMO the 4 speeds arent worth the effort considering the bellhousing work and that the ratios are no better than the later allsync rootes 4 speed.

The Type 9 trans has been used before in rootes powered cars, nice trans IMO particularly with the V6 ratios.
 

pruyter

Donation Time
I have tried to figure out what kind of gearbox this Sierra has, but up to now to no avail. The T9 is mentioned as a gearbox for the 4 cylinder Sierras, but I can't find any information about what the standard gearbox is for this V6 engine.
Thanks for your reply Rootes Racer and the next step will be to dig in the car and trying to identify the actual gearbox.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I have tried to figure out what kind of gearbox this Sierra has, but up to now to no avail. The T9 is mentioned as a gearbox for the 4 cylinder Sierras, but I can't find any information about what the standard gearbox is for this V6 engine.
Thanks for your reply Rootes Racer and the next step will be to dig in the car and trying to identify the actual gearbox.

Post a photo, each of the transmissions I mentioned are easy to ID.
 

pruyter

Donation Time
Thank you Rootes Racer I appreciate your help. In the meantime I have found out that it concerns a 4 speed gearbox, so this defenitely rules out the existence of the T9.
Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between an integral and an external shifter?
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Thank you Rootes Racer I appreciate your help. In the meantime I have found out that it concerns a 4 speed gearbox, so this defenitely rules out the existence of the T9.
Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between an integral and an external shifter?

The difference is whether the shifter is physically attached to the transmission (like on the alpine) or is a separate assembly the is linked to the transmission with 3 rods. Transmissions that have an external linkage will have 3 shafts that go out the side of the transmission case which connect with the shifter rod linkages.
 

pruyter

Donation Time
Thank you again Rootes Racer, with your explination it is now quite easy to indentify the type of gearbox
 

pruyter

Donation Time
In the meantime I have found out that the type of gearbox which is used in the Ford Sierra V6, 2294 cc is the type N gearbox also earlier used by Ford in Cortina's. After all it is a 5-speed gearbox.
I have made a scan of a drawing of this gearbox which is attached to this message.
My question is: is this gearbox as easy to install as the Borg Warner T5 or T9 or is it imperative to cut out sections in the Alpine?
Thanks in advance!
 

Attachments

  • Type N gearbox.jpg
    Type N gearbox.jpg
    46.9 KB · Views: 19

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
pruyter, The main problem that causes the modification of the transmission tunnel is not the transmission but the clutch release arm on the Mustang II bell housing.

Even the lower portion of the Mutt II release arm is clearly out of the way. Just the upper portion need the clearance.

What modifications you need might be very simple, depending on the bell housing and the release arm you utilize....

A question I have is what if? What if, you used an internal hydraulic release bearing like some of the later Ford's have?

If that could be resolved then for the 2.8 V6, the release arm, hard to find bell housings (mutt II) and tunnel modifications would go away.

DanR
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
pruyter, The main problem that causes the modification of the transmission tunnel is not the transmission but the clutch release arm on the Mustang II bell housing.

Even the lower portion of the Mutt II release arm is clearly out of the way. Just the upper portion need the clearance.

What modifications you need might be very simple, depending on the bell housing and the release arm you utilize....

A question I have is what if? What if, you used an internal hydraulic release bearing like some of the later Ford's have?

If that could be resolved then for the 2.8 V6, the release arm, hard to find bell housings (mutt II) and tunnel modifications would go away.

DanR

Lets be clear here becuase he is not talking about a T5 or anything mustang II related.

the transmission is a Type 9/N (not to be confused with a T9).
Type 9 and type N transmissions are nearly identical, the difference for the most part is the front shaft and gear ratios. IIRC the Type N was the early 4 cyl model used in the early 80s. If it came from a V6, its probably actually a Type 9.

The Type 9/N has ZERO compatibility to a T5 or the V6 mustang SR4 4-speed to which the bellhousing which is often used for T5 installs in V6 ford engine apps.

The Type 9 is SO much smaller than a T5 that I doubt that the trans tunnel needs modified other than perhaps relocating the shifter hole location.
I have heard at least of installs where the trans tunnel was not modified when used on a ford Zetec engine in an alpine.

The Type 9/N is part of the small ford transmission family (like the pinto/rocket gearbox) and as such uses a different belhousing in ford apps than the larger ford transmissions (like the BW-SR4 and T5 transmissions).

Its not clear to me what the original posters intent is (install the Type-N onto a rootes engined car or to install a ford drivetrain) so not much point in speculating and giving advice that's not relevant.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
If I was including info not called for....

RootesRacer, here is why I made my 2cents comments: Quote "Some time ago I approached this forum with questions about a Ford V6 conversion on the Alpine of a friend. With this information my friend started looking for a complete Ford drive line." Un quote......

It seems to me that he or they had an idea of implanting a v6 in an alpine, so I made the comment about tunnel modifications and why some had to be done thusly.

Sorry to add confusion to the confusion if there is confusion for some,

DanR
 

pruyter

Donation Time
Hi all,

The plan is to install the complete drive line of the Sierra in an Alpine. So engine and gearbox of the Sierra will be used. My question is: is this possible without changes to the Alpine body and if it is not what has to be altered?
Anyhow I appreciate it very much that you are coming with ideas and comments. I understand now that installing is possible with some minor changes to the Alpine body, am I right?
Thanks again in advance!

Regards,

Peter
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
We never got that engine here in the US. I would imagine though that its a smaller version of the 2 exhaust port 2.8 cologne.
That would make it a lot like out 2.6 V6 cologne in terms of avoiding the steering box.

It may well bolt in without any cutting whatsover.

The only trouble though may be since fords of that era are usually clutch actuated by cable, you will need to figure a way to pull the cable with hydraulics or adapt a slave in the bellhousing.

Sounds like a fun project and potential for a future bolt in 2.8 install.
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Some clarification seems appropriate.

Putting a T-5 transmission in a manual trans Alpine requires widening the left side of the transmission tunnel about 1-1/2 inches in the area immediately behind the gas pedal because of the width of the T-5 transmission gear case; no modification is needed on the right side.

The left side of a T-5 transmission gear case projects about 5 inches to the left of centerline; if the left side of the T-9/N transmission gear case is significantly narrower, it may not be necessary to widen the transmission tunnel.

As noted above, the clutch linkage is another potential issue.

If the linkage is toward the top of the bellhousing, the firewall / front of the transmission tunnel may need modification.

If the linkage is toward the bottom of the bellhousing (as with GM bellhousings), there should not be any interference.

A hydraulic throw-out bearing (HTOB) is another way to avoid the issue.​


Just my experience / opinion; YMMV.
 

pruyter

Donation Time
Hi Barry,

Thank you for your explination. Could you explain to me the working of a hydraulic throw out bearing? I am only used to either a cable operated clutch or a clutch that works with a hydraulic slave cylinder. In both cases the throw out bearing is a kind of a roller bearing or a coal bearing.
So for me this is the first time I hear of a hydraulic throw out bearing.

Regards,

Peter
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Peter,

A normal throw-out bearing slides forward / back on a support tube that sticks out from the front of the transmission. A mechanical arm or lever is used to move the throw-out bearing and the arm or lever protrudes outside the bellhousing.

A hydraulic throw-out bearing (HTOB) is essentially a normal throw-out bearing mounted on the front of a hollow hydraulic cylinder that mounts "around" the support tube. Instead of being moved by a mechanical arm or lever, the HTOB is activated by hydraulic fluid through a flexible line which can be routed wherever is convenient.

This link provides a pretty good explanation:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tech/manual-transmission-hydraulic-release-bearing.html

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:

pruyter

Donation Time
Barry thanks a lot for your explination, it has really helped me to understand the system! I have learned something today and that is always a nice experience.

Regards,

Peter
 
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