Ford Oil Cooler

[Alpine 1789]

While my car is apart, I will probably finally install the Ford Oil Cooler that I bought several years ago. (see http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5969) I like the idea of eliminating the oil that sits in the cooler line, along with eliminating the possibility of those lines fraying or splitting. However, there is something I never asked about before: is any oil cooler necessary with the aluminum finned oil pan from the fastback Alpine? I have had one of those on my car since I bought it in 1977 and have always run the stock oil cooler as well. Is that even necessary?

Thanks.

 

[RootesRacer]

I have found that 1725 engines just beat the hell out of the oil (much moreso than I experienced on the 1592), so I would say that you should run an oil cooler on ANY 1725.

The factory seems to corroborate.

 

[alpine_64]

I have found that 1725 engines just beat the hell out of the oil (much moreso than I experienced on the 1592), so I would say that you should run an oil cooler on ANY 1725.

The factory seems to corroborate.

Jarrid,

I was discussing this with someone the other day. Rootes fitted the opil cooler to the SV alpine, H120 rapiers, on the alpine GT's in the Uk they used the alloy sump, however on other 1725 alloy head cars (like humber scepter, singer vogue and some rapier fastbacks) and the iron head motors they didnt fit oil coolers.. so was it the higher performance variants they were worried about? Was it the alloy heads that made the difference? Was it a marketing thing for a more "performance" spec sheet? on the H120 and GLS they had an oil temp gauge too.. but they were "performance" biased cars.

What do you find the 1725 is doing to the oil... and do you have a theory why?

 

[RootesRacer]

What do you find the 1725 is doing to the oil... and do you have a theory why?

I really cant explain why, but every 1725 I have built runs lower than nominal oil pressure after a good hard run.
A alloy head 1592 is more or less the same as a 1725 minus the 5 main crank.

When I had no cooler fitted, the results were substantially lower oil pressure at idle after a good run.

The oil will produce higher oil pressure when new, but degrades fairly rapidly with use.

with no cooler I have measured the surface temp of the sump and it was north of 250 degrees F so I would expect the actual oil temp to be 300+, which is not good.

 

[tigretr]

To the best of my knowledge, oil starts breaking down at 240-250F. Any higher than that and you start losing shear strength as well as the oil starts to turn into sludge. With my new motor I recently did a strong hill climb and saw water temps in the 220-230F range and oil temps around 240F. Made me nervous enough to install my oil cooler again as well as totally redesign my cooling system (2 aluminum radiators). The primary is a crossflow in the engine compartment which feeds to the secondary located in front of the passenger side front wheel. My goal is to keep the engine temp between 180-190 under full load and the oil temp in the 200 range. Not back on the road yet, but very soon.

Bottom line, keeping your oil cool will keep your motor safe. Remember, it is the motors blood!

Brian

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks guys. Just to be safe, I will plumb the Ford oil cooler before I put the head back on. But just of out curiosity, am I correct that the fastback Alpine GT used the finned aluminum sump in place of the cooler? Or was that in addition to it?

 

[George Farrell]

Jim

I have owned two '69 Alpine GT's. Both had aluminum sumps and neither had an oil cooler. My 1725 Series V now has both.

Georged

 

[RootesRooter]

North American GT's only used the aluminum oil pan - no oil cooler.

I read a magazine article some years ago that said Rootes found the 1725's with aluminum head and dual carbs in the new GT's ran way too hot without an oil cooler (which the GT wasn't designed for), so they came up with the aluminum pan instead.

The GT's were rated at 5 fewer HP than Series V's according to the manuals, probably because of the narrower intake ports in the GT head. (I can't remember if the cam stayed the same). So the pan which was adequate for the GT might not be enough for a the slightly higher performance Series V. To answer your original question: I'd say the oil cooler is necessary, with or without the aluminum pan.

 

[Alpine 1789]

In the earlier discussion on this topic, RootesRacer wrote:

It just needs water going to the cooler, breaking into the pipe that goes from the water pump to the thermo housing sounds OK since its so close.

Otherwise, re-route the hose that goes from the pump to the head, and break into that one.

Do NOT break into the heater circuit since when its valve is off, no water will flow.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but the only option on a SV is to plumb it between the pump and the thermostat, as there is no hose that goes to the head. Right? How have others done that? That is an awfully tight area for two separate hoses, each of which has to make a 90° bend.

 

[RootesRacer]

The only difference between a SV and earlier application is that the SV has its manifold heater fitting plugged or not even machined on the head itself.

The SV does still have a water hose going to the top of the head toward the rear of the engine.

 

[Alpine 1789]

I have been getting ready to install the oil cooler while I wait for my head to come back from the machine shop (I'll have more on that shortly). Removing the old cooler turned out to be one of the biggest PITA Alpine jobs of the last 35 years, but I finished up last night. A little digging around in my parts room and I discovered something I'd forgotten about: I have two of the Ford oil coolers. One I got from a T-bird Turbo Coupe in a junkyard and a Merkur one I bought on eBay. The bases for the two appear the same, but the Merkur one has the right angle adapter that Jarrid has earlier recommended. Either way, I'll need to go to a Ford dealer today to get some new gaskets (hopefully, they are available), but first I have to decide which one to use. Which leads to three questions:

1. Are the advantages to putting the filter at a 90 degree angle instead of straight as original?
2. If yes, where do you point the filter? To the right would cover the fuel pump, to the left might interfer with the distributor aond straight back doesn't seem to leave much room from the inside edge of the engine compartment.
3. What is the best way to orient the water hoses? I am thinking back and slightly to the left, but wanted to see if anyone had a better idea.

I am sure I will have a few other questions when I actually install it, but one thing at a time. I am determined to have this car back on the road well ahead of the Invasion!

 

[RootesRacer]

First of all, I dont think the gaskets are available, if you find otherwise, do tell.

The 90 degree allows you to remove the filter without the oil going down the block (like on the stock filter setup).
Plus when not running, the oil is less motivated to drain to the sump or at least less of it.

 

[Ken Ellis]

In the non-Ford oil cooler column, has anyone used a "plate cooler" for their oil cooler?

 

[Alpine 1789]

First of all, I dont think the gaskets are available, if you find otherwise, do tell.

The 90 degree allows you to remove the filter without the oil going down the block (like on the stock filter setup).
Plus when not running, the oil is less motivated to drain to the sump or at least less of it.

Thanks. I wonder if I could find an oil filter that has a matching gasket? I'll probably run over to the auto parts store and take a look. As far as o-rings go, my local Ace Hardware has a good selection of rings in their plumbing department. Are they all pretty much equal, or do I need to try to find a special type to be oil resistant?

Also, Jarrid: how do you have the water lines oriented? Or, or you running an electric fuel pump, which would make to the right easy?

 

[RootesRacer]

Thanks. I wonder if I could find an oil filter that has a matching gasket? I'll probably run over to the auto parts store and take a look. As far as o-rings go, my local Ace Hardware has a good selection of rings in their plumbing department. Are they all pretty much equal, or do I need to try to find a special type to be oil resistant?

Also, Jarrid: how do you have the water lines oriented? Or, or you running an electric fuel pump, which would make to the right easy?

I never considered the fuel pump to be an issue as I have run electric for a long time.

If you cant make a go of the 90 deg adapter (really hope you can), the cooler on its own is a very compelling mod on its own.

BTW IIRC one of the orings (dont recall which) I was able to use a recovered oil filter gasket as it needed a thick fat o-ring.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks. I am heading out to Ace and Autozone shortly and will report back.

 

[Alpine 1789]

I sort of struck out on the gaskets. I found plain o-rings at the hardware store that would fit the machined area on the 'bolt' (I don't know what you really call it) from the one piece unit, although I am not certain it really requires one as the two piece one does not have the machined area in its bolt. I also found an o-ring that would probably do ok for the bolt that attaches the right angle adapter on the two-piece unit, assuming that a standard plumbing o-ring is safe to use here. Ace also had a large o-ring that might work for the point where the base attaches to the block, but I would be concerned about using a standard one there.

So, on to AutoZone, where I tried out basically every filter that looked like it might work, starting with a PF-16, which was the stock filter on the Turbo Coupe and the Alpine. That gasket is pretty perfect for the point where the angle adapter attaches to the base, but just a little too small for the block attachment. Unfortunately, the block attachment is the critical one for either cooler. I Googled the topic and found lots of people who said they were able to make the PF-16 gasket work, but I don't see how. I also found one of two potential sources for them and am waiting to hear back to see if any pan out. Baring that, I am thinking about flipping the original ones over and setting them in with a small bead of silicone gasket maker. I am thinking that bead would be just enough to raise the profile a bit and ought to allow the original gasket to last a lot longer. Does that make sense, or am I about to do something bad?