1. Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.

    If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible.

    Enjoy.

    Dismiss Notice

Ex Avery Harrington for auction

Discussion in 'Harrington Alpine' started by alpine_64, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    The UK owner of the ex Bob Avery Harrington is putting it up for auction. It had appeared for sale with a huge asking price early last year at a UK dealer.

    The car underwent further work after returning to the UK to bring it closer to its specification that of the original Sebring racer. The car now has an FIA htp and has been race prepared.

    It's an interesting car , would be a lot of fun and get some entities to good events but any buyer should be made aware it was a rebody and is now a tribute to the original Sebring racer using parts of the original car in its build.

    http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/sunbeam/harrington/1864913.html
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  2. Alpine66

    Alpine66 Donation Time

    Good looking car, be interesting to see what it brings at auction.
    That hemmings listing sure could use some paragraphs.....
     
  3. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    harrington

    This car was a real hit at Invasion 1 and also at the TE/AE United at Covington,Ky in 2006. A local Sunbeam owner in southern Ohio was trying to buy it after Bob passed away and his family had listed it e bay. Some thought the family pulled the auction due to some controversy posted on several sites but the car was sold to a U.K. owner. It seems that the car is still a highly desired piece.
     
  4. GlennB

    GlennB Silver Level Sponsor

    Ex Bob Avery car

    The car has not been registered in the UK as far as I know. It never had a UK registration before because it was exported. This means it can be given an age-related reg and the SAOC will / may be asked by the DVLA if it is a representative example of the marque with all major components of the appropriate age - if this happens. There will be no question of what it might be. The racing hierarchy is happy for the car to be presented as something special because they get another entrant and fees for each race. A buyer may equally be happy to pay a high price and continue the perception because it is actually a very cheap way to enter all the prestigious events against real Le Mans Ferraris and Jaguars. Having said all that, there are E-types, XKE's, which have been re-bodied several times and no-one complains. You can buy an MGB shell and retain the classic taxation status here. It's all a mess really, and at the end of the day it's a case of how you feel. Personally I prefer open-ness but maybe it will still be considered super desirable even though the community knows all about it.
     
  5. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    There is no question the car is a series II alpine, so an age related plate would be fine, it's just that the body it has now was not the one that raced at Sebring and is a later build body than the original car.

    It does have some parts of the original racer. I wish they would be more open about it, but then it would likely have some impact on value.

    The current owner did a good job of correcting the detail to make it representative of the car as raced in 63 ( though the addition of the black wires while extra racy looking is not correct) . Since it started historic competition it's been obviously developed for performance, now much lower and engine developed but that's the norm as historic motorsports has turned into historic racing where the cars are now heavily developed beyond their period spec.

    I think it's a great looking car, would be a blast to run and certainly get invites to great events , it's just that the only parts that crossed the line back in the day are the roof and a few sundry items.
     
  6. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    avery

    Is there documentation that the Harrington parts were transferred to another body? At what point does the replacement of body parts make it no longer the same car? This question comes up a lot at Sunbeam meets and car shows here in the states. No one ever has an answer.
    I'm glad Ian turned loose of a rust free Harrington and my wife ended up with it. The body shop is really happy to be dealing with a car that only needs dents and factory high spots worked out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  7. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    There is quite extensive and conclusive photo documentation that demonstrates there is a different body used in the restoration, not that the documentation was trying to show that.. it was someone just photographing their progress.

    There were several key giveaways after the restoration, some have been rectified by the UK owner, others are still present.

    As discussed many times, across different topics... It cones down to linage, especially when you are placing value in the history of a specific car.

    Nobody denies this is a great car, probably even better now than after its first reconstruction and closer in detail to the original Sebring racer, but the car that crossed the line is gone.... In some ways it would have been great of the original rusted tub had been retained and could have stayed with the current reconstruction, that way if someone had the time , money and inclination the original could have been rebuilt.. a good example of this was the ex Kinder Knocker lightweight low drag etype
     
  8. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    avery

    I've looked the car over a few times. where can I find the photos? It would be interesting to see what was done. we own three Harringtons and I can tell you that they each have their little oddities. owners that have done a few bare metal total restorations understand what it takes to do it right. It's difficult to work with a lot of rust.
     
  9. Warren

    Warren Silver Level Sponsor

    No TAC

    For a Harrington :) It's Grandpa's old axe, or was it a Indian's the handle was changed 3 times and the head was too. It's a created car but a nice one.
     
  10. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    avery

    The same goes for tigers. there were around 400 harringtons built with only 250 sold by rootes dealers. that means they are a much rarer car than a tiger.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  11. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    You have 2 separate issues there Bob.... And 3 implications

    1. Refurbishment of a mostly solid/straight car... Straight forward and easier.

    2. Rebuilding a rusty/ bent car... Lots of hours, lots of money lots of headaches ... But if the car is of historic or emotional significance the path that is taken.. rebuilding a car properly.

    3. Rebody... The easy path with a difficult car .. one where finance or ease of end result dictates direction... However the shady part of this comes when the rebuilder then moves the VIN across from the scrapped car. The only reason to do this step is to hide what has been done.
     
  12. Harrington Jan

    Harrington Jan Bronze Level Sponsor

    Michael

    I don't think it will be presented as a "re-bodied or replica". It has its own website saying it's the true car. Somebody will be tricked. It didn't do too good at Goodwood 2014, among the thirties beaten by many in same class.
     
  13. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time


    Jan, no doubt it will not be accurately represented, I still think it would be a very fun car.

    As for its competitiveness, it would be very hard for an alpine to run competitively. against its period peers these days given the development and bespoke parts available for BMC, standard and ford powered cars... You might not be in the lead pack but you'd be having fun. :cool:
     
  14. Bill Blue

    Bill Blue Diamond Level Sponsor

    I think it is time for the old car community to say a car has been rebuilt and let it go at that. Having owned a rusty Alpine, I cannot see much difference between a car that has been rebodied and one that has had entire panels replaced. Anyway you cut it, the original car is not there.

    I'm getting to the point that I have a hard time accepting as original a car that has undergone a high buck repaint. Yes, it looks like a million bucks, setting there with perfect panel gaps, flawless paint over a perfectly prepped body and incredible chrome, but is it original? I think not.

    It really is a hoot, the owner of a highly modified driver taking an extreme purest viewpoint. But that is the reason Invasion XVI had generic awards. Best Dash, Best Air Cleaner, Best Gear Shifter, etc. We went so far as to leave the definition of "Best" up to the individual. Best could mean most original, most creative, or maybe, you just liked it. We almost had "Biggest Paint Chip" but decided the winner might not appreciate that distinction.

    Just one man's opinion.

    Bill
     
  15. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    Bill, i can understand your point, and there is a cross over point at when a car has had so many parts replaced that it's hard to determine what's left...

    But that's missing the point of difference with a rebody with an existing car with 50+ years history.. .. that car ( B ) has its history has its identity.. someone is then adding another cats vin (A) and claiming it has always been car A ... That's deception.

    It's like you getting a heart transplant and then asking for the donors drivers licence and saying his wife and kids have always been yours ... In reality you'd still be Bill but with another heart.
     
  16. Bill Blue

    Bill Blue Diamond Level Sponsor

    Michael, using your analogy about identity and heart transplants, isn't the identity of a Harrington the part that is NOT Alpine? So replacing the Alpine parts (which I think is the issue) should not be an issue.

    But maybe I misunderstand the situation.

    Bill
     
  17. 65beam

    65beam Bronze Level Sponsor

    auction

    There are some that always find fault with a restoration or with something being sold. Their favorite expression seems to be "BUYER BEWARE" . Their opinions must be over looked because no one except the minority with the same opinions as them seem to listen. There are buyers that don't even know these people exist so these doomsayers are wasting their time. These buyers have money to spend and if they decide to buy an item they buy it.
    I would say Bill hit the nail on the head. The Harrington parts are what separates them from just being an Alpine. The LeMans is the best example.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  18. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    Yes slight misunderstanding, the issue is really the "car" yes the Harrington top was an addition in period , a factory approved conversion and you could debate the issues of if tgos car is now a Harrington or a replica Harrington as thid roof was added to a car in the recent past not done at the Harrington works on this specific car. ( yes that's a whole other issue that the car is not the one converted by Harrington but using parts of one that rusted away.. that's been done several times and to tigers too but another debate)

    In this case the larger issue is the car is another alpine that the top has been added to.. and the issue being the claim that it's the original car that raced in period at Sebring and elsewhere whereas the car is actually another alpine with another history that has them had a Harrington roof and vin added from the original Sebring car then assumed the Sebring cars identity and history.

    Like I said I love the car.. and prefer it as it is now closer to the original Sebring car, but the fact is the car is a replica of the original race car using some of the original cars parts.
     
  19. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    No surprise in your opinion Bob.. and those who are happy to decieve especially for profit will always muddy the waters. Luckily you don't own cars of significance, and likely never would as you have no interest in linage and history...hence why you don't get it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  20. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    Bill,

    I have a good analogy for you...

    You built your dura-pine it's been developed over many years, you've taken it to many events , done tours and taken people for rides in it competed in auto-x in it... And iirc you painted it in your garage one summer?

    Now heven forbid someone came along and wrote it off and the body was scrapped but you saved the engine seats. Then you bought another series V but an early one with round trunk... Installed you old engine in, fabricated new mounts etc as per the original and painted it again... Then went to the wrecked car, took its vin and sal tags off and placed them on your newly completed car....

    Is that still the car you built originally? Is it still the car you attended all the invasions in and gave people rides in... Or is it another alpine that someone else owned and drove for 45+ years then you added bits that survived from the durapine to replicate your lost car? ( Btw I know you'd use it as a chance to upgrade further .. but that's beside the point :D. )
     

Share This Page