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Electrical Gremlin's

burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
Have I ever said how much I hate electrical issues.........

Here's my situation its a series III Alpine with a positive ground though I've updated the electrical so it will take an electrical tach - other than that it's your ordinary Electrical harness. I've had the car running.... in fact, I had the car running about 4 months ago but the battery was old and wouldn't hold a charge so in January I bought a new one..... I haven't driven the car really since October because I've been waiting to get a brake servo and the weather in the NW doesn't like Sunbeams in the winter. Now,this weekend I finally get the new battery in the car, I get my rebuilt brake booster installed and go to start the car. Of course I get a click at the starter solenoid and nothing. I go to the starter solenoid and push the button to override and see if I can get the starter to even kick over... Now the fun, smoke in the battery box..... the positive side ground cable over heated when I went direct and tried the over-ride the ignition off the starter solenoid. I unwired the starter solenoid and tried to go direct to the starter from the battery and I get the same thing.

Is it possible that the starter is bad to the point that the starter is shorting out the electrical? I've had this car running in the past and did nothing new other than a new battery. The fact that the over heated short is at the battery would seem to lead me to think that this short is big.....not in the dash, not in the wiring of the car but in the starter itself??

Thoughts? I have to pull my exhaust header off to get the starter out so before I go down the path of pulling the generator, exhaust header and whatever else has to come off I would love a second and third opinion!!!

Thank you for your opinions!
 
T

turbinepete

Here is my 2 cents.

Try removing the cable on the starter side of the solenoid and then turn the key. If no smoke appears, then the short is between the solenoid and the starter.
Reconnect the cable and now try removing the cable at the starter itself and retry turning the key. If no evidence of a short then the starter may be at fault.

The other thing I would do is ensure that the battery terminals make very good electrical contact. If the contact is poor, considerable heat will be generated under load.

(I will always remember when I used to work on Bell 212 helicopters a pilot complaining to me that whenever he started the engines, he smelled a strong odor of burnt rubber - it turned out that there was a terminal junction right under the floor where the pilot would put his feet. The terminals were very dirty and the heat that was generated would burn the pilot`s shoes...)

Good luck.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Disconnect all wires and cables from the starter, then check the resistance with an ohm meter between the solenoid terminal (on the starter) and its frame. If you get a zero resistance the starter has shorted internally.

However, if this doesn't provve to be the problem, the starter armature (the part that rotates) may be jammed. In this case you will get a very high current flow as it is a series-wound motor; i.e. the field and armature windings are in series (in shunt-wound motors like the heater fan and wiper motor they are in parallel). Series-wound DC motors are used where high starting torque is needed, but depend on the armature rotating to limit the current flow. If it doesn't, the amps go off the clock and could have caused your symptoms. Check to ensure that you can rotate the armature.
 
burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
:confused: ........ELECTRICAL ISSUES.......... Ohm meters, ........:confused: ........armatures......... :confused: Can we ever just turn the key and go...: I knew I should have studied engineering instead of that accounting degree....:rolleyes:

Thank you for your opinions..... seems to make sense to me that the starter is locked up and needs a helping hand......
 
skywords

skywords

Donation Time
You should be able to remove and replace the starter with the exhaust in place. I have done it on my Series II with a 1600. Knucklesville but worth it.
Just my opinion.

Rick
 
burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
I have a 1725 in the series III with a custom header........ Based on over an hour of trying...... with the wheels turned every which way....... you just can't get the starter pulled out far enough to drop it down. The header is a four into two set up and there just isn't enough room. I have the garage floor marks on my back to prove it. Now, I could be wrong and I'm sure if everything had been engineered accordingly right off the production floor it should work...... but in my setup.... just a half inch short. This is why I asked for some help.....if it was as simple as drop a starter I would have done that cause I have tried and I would have attempted to figure this out on the bench vs. on the car. I think the stuck starter is my cause for the short.......just makes sense that since trying to turn this over with the old battery that the starter is stuck right on it's brushes.....or is that the armature......... :D ......... and this is causing my short. If this was a small short..... then the smoke would be in the dash or up in the engine compartment. The fact that everything seemed fine last time it ran - other than the battery..... just makes sense that this is in the starter. I swapped out the solenoid and the issue remained so that is not the issue. I actually started down the path of swapping out the starter but that is when it became a much bigger project cause you just can't drop it down and swap. I did the hammer thing too on the starter and still nothing...... or should I say....still shorting.
 
Pumpkin

Pumpkin

Donation Time
starter

I haven't read through all the posts', but have you tried to (with the starter in position) turn the starter with a wrench yet?. If it is a standard Alpine starter it should have a @@ 5/16 -3/8 " square nubb on the open end. If it turns there then go electrical.

my thoughts are free, other wise remove the exaust..:eek:
Chuck
 
V_Mad

V_Mad

Donation Time
If you are getting smoke from your battery box, you have a bad connection in there. Over time the connections can corrode if not protected. Try to see where the smoke and heat comes from first.

The earth cable, where it is bolted to the chassis is the main suspect. Remove it, and clean both surfaces back to bare metal.

Also clean the battery cable terminals until they are bright metal.

The grease all connection with petroleum jelly (Vaseline?).

Then try again. There should be no smoke. If your starter is jammed you will get smoke in your starter.
 
burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
Wish I could say solved. :(

After bolting down the battery cables and ensuring the starter is able to spin...... nothing...... one click that sounds like it is coming from the starter solenoid and that is it. I have an ignition light in the run position that does dark when you turn to the start position. That was the extent of my efforts....out of frustration I called it a night without any further explorations.

THOUGHTS?
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Steve: If you get a high current flow with the starter connected, and nothing with it disconnected, you have an internal short and will have to remove the starter and at least get it bench tested. It will probably need to be replaced.
 
burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
Nick,

Do you think a new battery could possibly short out a faulty starter? The starter is sort of new - rebuild off ebay......... one that you see often in the Sunbeam listings. I have my old Lucas starter that was originally on the car so I guess I'll get busy pulling the exhaust header off so I can scoot out the starter. Back up on Jacks it goes......at least it's still early in the season.
 
Wombat

Wombat

Donation Time
Just a thought ...

Is it possible that the starter cable is shorting to the end cover of the starter motor? Also check to make sure the nylon insulators around the terminal are in place.

Good luck!!
 
burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
End is not shorting to the starter cap - the nylon bushing is in place. BUT, that terminal took a hit when it was shipped to me and was bent quite a bit. I straightened it but the post is loose on into the starter....... I suppose that could be the issue. I had some of this same problem last fall when I finally got this car back on the road....then it disappeared just about as quickly as it arrived....of course until now. Throughout the winter I didn't really do anything with the car as the battery wouldn't hold a charge.

I will pull it off this weekend and put it on the bench. I just think this is all starter related.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
burgy711 said:
Nick,

Do you think a new battery could possibly short out a faulty starter?
Click to expand...

No. You may have a clue in the starter's loose terminal post; that may have caused the internal wiring to short against the frame.

Did you try the ohms test?
 
burgy711

burgy711

Donation Time
I didn't try the Ohm tests........... that little box with the strange signs and dials just confuses the dickens out of me........ I need the "Ohm Meter training for Dummies" booklet.
 
Pumpkin

Pumpkin

Donation Time
starter

burgy711 said:
I didn't try the Ohm tests........... that little box with the strange signs and dials just confuses the dickens out of me........ I need the "Ohm Meter training for Dummies" booklet.
Click to expand...


My last post was lost?
I didn't see any suggestions that the end of the(most Sunbeam) starter has a square head on it, if you can turn it with a wrench, and it does' not start take it out.. Then take the car to a good electric shop and have them find the loop. Most likey a ground problem..
Chuck
 
V_Mad

V_Mad

Donation Time
It sounds like at least some current is flowing, but something in the circuit-probably the starter terminal-is dropping most of the volts and sapping the power.

A quick tell-tale test is to turn the starter switch for a few seconds, then feel (carefully) around to see whats really hot; thats where the trouble will be.

If nothing gets very hot your power is probably not even getting through the solenoid, or even out of the battery.
 
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