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DCOE 40s

Thor 1211

Silver Level Sponsor
I've been thinking about upgrading the carbs on my series v for a little more power and it seems the ultimate upgrade is the DCOE twin 40's. They're easy enough to find but where in the heck do you find a manifold or do you have to build one yourself? Maybe it's just as smart to get the DGV and go with the Sunbeam Specialties manifold. I'm sure a lot of guys have gone down this road before and maybe can steer me in the right direction.

thanks.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I've been thinking about upgrading the carbs on my series v for a little more power and it seems the ultimate upgrade is the DCOE twin 40's. They're easy enough to find but where in the heck do you find a manifold or do you have to build one yourself? Maybe it's just as smart to get the DGV and go with the Sunbeam Specialties manifold. I'm sure a lot of guys have gone down this road before and maybe can steer me in the right direction.

thanks.

Pierce manifolds sells the original TWM model 0077.

It has fitment issues that you can search out and read about.

I have 2 of these intakes, they flow better than all other available twin DCOE intakes.

There was an Australian intake that emulated the shape and fit of the what is called the "Gooseneck" intake, but I am not aware of if these are still available.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
I don't have any horsepower numbers but my down draft Weber does not appear to produce any advantage over the Strombergs I had, in fact I probably exchanged some HP for reliability. The Strombergs flowed straight to the manifold with no turns. The Weber makes a right turn at the bottom before making a right turn to the cylinders before making a right turn in the the cylinders. I suspect you would see a nice increase with a single DCOE with a well designed manifold over the Weber or the Strombergs. The manifold on the car was designed for the casting department, not the tuning boys. I wish I could afford DCOE's... So in my opinion, which is not worth much, if you want reliability, the Weber is okay, if you want performance, the Strom's are not bad with a good manifold or the DCOE set up
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I don't have any horsepower numbers but my down draft Weber does not appear to produce any advantage over the Strombergs I had, in fact I probably exchanged some HP for reliability. The Strombergs flowed straight to the manifold with no turns. The Weber makes a right turn at the bottom before making a right turn to the cylinders before making a right turn in the the cylinders. I suspect you would see a nice increase with a single DCOE with a well designed manifold over the Weber or the Strombergs. The manifold on the car was designed for the casting department, not the tuning boys. I wish I could afford DCOE's... So in my opinion, which is not worth much, if you want reliability, the Weber is okay, if you want performance, the Strom's are not bad with a good manifold or the DCOE set up

The strom intake have a far worse flow deficiency even compared to the right angle flow shift of the 2bbl carb+intake.

The strom intake forms Siamesed pairs between cyls 1/2 and 3/4. These cyls are 180 and 540 flow degrees off from each other, resulting in irregular reversion characteristics where the earlier of the two cyls will get the lions share of air and fuel at and near intake resonance.
The result being fuel distribution errors at higher RPMs.
At lower RPMs, the balance log comes into play to help equalize the 4 flow pulses, this just doesnt work at high RPMs since the log diameter and change of direction becomes an impedance to the reflection.

The 150CD from a flow perspective is about the same as a 38mm single barrel carb. The equivalent in the DGV form factor would be the 38DGS carb, which will vastly outflow the twin 150CDs at the same pressure drop.

If you are running a 32/32 DGV, it would probably be a wash for a well tuned strom setup (ignoring the reliability improvement). The 32/36 should be able to net higher power, and probably the same fuel mileage as the 150CDs.
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time

The strom intake forms Siamesed pairs between cyls 1/2 and 3/4. These cyls are 180 and 540 flow degrees off from each other, resulting in irregular reversion characteristics where the earlier of the two cyls will get the lions share of air and fuel at and near intake resonance.
The result being fuel distribution errors at higher RPMs.



Are there any known mods to improve Stromberg intake flow?
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time

The strom intake forms Siamesed pairs between cyls 1/2 and 3/4. These cyls are 180 and 540 flow degrees off from each other, resulting in irregular reversion characteristics where the earlier of the two cyls will get the lions share of air and fuel at and near intake resonance.
The result being fuel distribution errors at higher RPMs.



Are there any known mods to improve Stromberg intake flow?

The problem is the intake design, not the carbs themselves.

If you want higher flow, some people have installed SU H6 carbs or stromberg 175CD carbs.
Either case you will need custom needles or just accept the compromise of available needle profiles.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
On the DCOE front, it was reline in sydney who took over all the old lynx castings. they were making the "gooseneck" warnerford style DCOE manifold, but think they are out of stock. They do re-runs if you get a batch of 10 or 15 IIRC.

I bought a new TWM straigh inlet manifodl a few years back and was going to replace the redline one with it to see if i could remount the scuttle brace back in the stock location.. i ended up not doing it as with the staright manifold there was not enough room for the extended aux venturis and ram pipes of my holbay DCOE's.

Thor 1211 .. i can sedn you some pics of the manifolds if you want.... remembering its much easier to mount them on EHD than LHD cars. The gooseneck i believ solves many of the issues on LHD.
 

Thor 1211

Silver Level Sponsor
dcoe's

Alpine_64:

I'm not so much worried about the scuttle brace as I would make a brace with a kink in it like Bill Attala (sp?) but I am concerned about clearing the master cylinder and other immovables. The Pierce DCOE manifold and Carb set up looks perfect (though expensive) but I would choke on the cost and spend the money if I thought I would get a noticeable increase in performance. I love the look of the DCOEs and can't help but believe that the staight flow into the head is better than a down draft configuration as Rootsracer has suggested. I would be much obliged if you could send me some pictures of manifolds. thanks - Thor1211
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Thor, (name?)

please see attached: (click thumbs for larger images)

This is the TWM manifold, straight in design and good flow. In theory this would not produce the same torque as the googeneck due to shorter inlet runners.. but then you have to take into account length of velocity stacks.. that said.. you cant run long stacks on this manifold:



Redline (wanerford) gooseneck manifold.. longer runners and lifts the manifold up higher, allowing longer stacks and IIRC solves the LHD MC issue.. but also moves it more into the brace path:



there are more pics in the album.. but can only insert 4 in a post here.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Alpine_64:

I'm not so much worried about the scuttle brace as I would make a brace with a kink in it like Bill Attala (sp?) but I am concerned about clearing the master cylinder and other immovables. The Pierce DCOE manifold and Carb set up looks perfect (though expensive) but I would choke on the cost and spend the money if I thought I would get a noticeable increase in performance. I love the look of the DCOEs and can't help but believe that the staight flow into the head is better than a down draft configuration as Rootsracer has suggested. I would be much obliged if you could send me some pictures of manifolds. thanks - Thor1211

Thor,

>>staight flow into the head is better than a down draft configuration as Rootsracer has suggested

Perhaps you misread what I was saying about the above. My comment relates to the DD DGV carb and intake being superior to the stromberg SD intake and carbs.
The dual dcoe webers are superior in every way to the DD weber and the SD stroms.
The tune-ability of DCOEs allows a level of calibration that is both wonderful and a curse to those that have had the pleasure of installing them.
 

Thor 1211

Silver Level Sponsor
dcoe's

Wow! the British guy really seems like the DD 32/26 and doesn't think much of the DCOE. However, if I have got what he says correct, he's the only one who says that well set up CD 150's are as good as the Webers (sometimes better??). Off the topic, Rootes Racer pointed out that I misinterpreted what he said and I confess - it was Eleven and not him that talked about the the DD flow path. My mistake. The concensus seems to be that either Weber set up will give improvement and so the question becomes is the extra money for the DCOE's and the fiddling to get them to fit worth it. Anyone's opinion and/or experience on that point is welcome.
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
From that thread, re the Zenith-Stromberg CD carbs:

"As long as you keep the dashpots full, I have found these excellent. Easy to set up, flexible and economical. Just don't keep fiddling with them!"

I heartily agree, though very likely there are others that will take issue.

Ultimately, though, I'm with Vizard in that nothing really beats a well setup S.U. carb. They're so deceptively simple and durable and they only ever go out of tune when the owner screws them up.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Wow! the British guy really seems like the DD 32/26 and doesn't think much of the DCOE. However, if I have got what he says correct, he's the only one who says that well set up CD 150's are as good as the Webers (sometimes better??). Off the topic, Rootes Racer pointed out that I misinterpreted what he said and I confess - it was Eleven and not him that talked about the the DD flow path. My mistake. The concensus seems to be that either Weber set up will give improvement and so the question becomes is the extra money for the DCOE's and the fiddling to get them to fit worth it. Anyone's opinion and/or experience on that point is welcome.

Actually the guy started off touting the benefits of the 28/36 DCD, an even meeker variant.
When you talk about all these DGV, DCD and DFV variants, the numbers on the front (throttle plate diameter) only tell part of the story, the other and often more relevant is the effective diameter of the "cast in" ventruri (henceforth I will call a "choke").
The 38/32 and 28/36 units are for small displacement, high mileage cars and have very small chokes for strong jet signal.
Small chokes also mean high flow restriction, which is best described as anti-horsepower.
The main reason the guys carb philosophy is seriously flawed is in describing
the CFM flows of the carbs. DCOEs have variable CFMs in that the choke diameter determines the restrictivity of the carb. No 2 bbl DGV carb with
even 32/36 throttles and their inbuilt 24 and 27mm chokes can outflow a 40mm DCOE with "smallish" 27mm chokes.
If we say the 32/36 has 215CFM flow potential (we'll ignore that we dont know the pressure drop spec), a single 40mm DCOE with 27mm chokes will flow around 250CFM all things the same.
Since that one DCOE is feeding TWO cylinders at about 125CFM each, the net flow potential for all 4 cylinders is 500CFM.
A 2bbl carb flowing into a single plenum 4 cyl engine becomes multiplexed flow. All 4 induction pulses flow through the sum of both barrel flow paths.
This makes the jetting signal stronger for the CFM it produces, but at the expense of flow resistivity. The flow through a DCOE equipped engine becomes single carburettor per cylinder (provided there is no plenum) and the flow is simplex where the single flow pulse for that cylinder creates the depression for that cyls main jet. The resultant sum flow of all cylinders in CFM per inch of pressure drop becomes larger ( a sign of flow efficiency).
We could talk about the added advantage of having a single runner straight in the head flowpath, but I think that goes without saying.

As for the CD150s, they were a good carb for the time. The theory of operation was sound.
New and unworn units had good fuel linearity due to the app specific tapered
needles.
Throttle response was better than most conventional carbs since the sudden throttle opening resulted in a large depression and excellent main jet signal.
The downside for the CD150 is that it has a rather high pressure drop as a
function of flow and again you are multiplexing multiple induction pulses through a common metering element.



As for experience with DCOEs, I have had them on my car for over 15 years.
I actually have 3 different sets, 1 pair of spanish weber 40DCOE151s, a pair of Japanese solex/mikuni PHH40s and a pair of japanese OER PHH44s.

The best carbs by far are the OERs, they offer a level of quality that weber NEVER had, used weber main and idle jets and other critical tuning parts.
They also feature externally adjustable float level adjustment and the best
emulsion system of any carburettor I have ever worked with.


I should warn you that going weber DCOE is not simple, cheap or easy.
No two engines seem to jet up the same even with similar internals, and unless you are very, very experienced or pay someone who is, you can spend years trying to get rid of that last little annoying calibration compromise.
DCOEs are the most tunable carb option for almost any application, the degrees of tuning freedom means you will spend a lot of $$$ on jets, chokes and other hard parts.
To tune them you will need a good flowmeter. I also recommend a wideband O2 sensor with a display of some sort.

If any of this sounds like it is out of your league, it probably is.
Many folks have gotten the webers bug and went down the path only to reverse course in favor of simpler albeit lesser performance carburetion.

If you are independently wealthy, particularly stubborn or absolutely uncompromising, then DCOE webers may enrich your life.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
I am one of those who went down the DCOE path and reversed course. Maybe Mr. Ed is right and I was just fooling myself, but I think the car did perform better. And I loved the sound they made. But I spent a entire spring and much of the summer throwing time and money at them and never did get them right. In hindsight, I think the problem was my manifold, which isn't drilled correctly and one carbs sits about 1/8" below the other, which I assume prevented them from ever being properly synchronized. Regardless, I gave up and put my 32/36 back on.

But, the DCOEs aren't for sale. They were too much fun and one of these days I will put them back on!
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I am one of those who went down the DCOE path and reversed course. Maybe Mr. Ed is right and I was just fooling myself, but I think the car did perform better. And I loved the sound they made. But I spent a entire spring and much of the summer throwing time and money at them and never did get them right. In hindsight, I think the problem was my manifold, which isn't drilled correctly and one carbs sits about 1/8" below the other, which I assume prevented them from ever being properly synchronized. Regardless, I gave up and put my 32/36 back on.

But, the DCOEs aren't for sale. They were too much fun and one of these days I will put them back on!


Jim, I remembered your story specifically. I recall the anguish you went through.
If your carb throttle shafts are not DEAD IN LINE with one another, there is absolutely no hope in getting the part throttle angles equal between front at rear. No linkage in the known universe could correct for that.

Hope someday you get a good manifold and try again.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Yep, and I knew it from the very beginning and just forgot about it during all of the fiddling. In fact, it wasn't until I took them off that I realized that I was doomed from the beginning. While I have a stock Rootes manifold that could be cut and welded, I think my best bet is to fix the Redline one by having a good machinist weld up and re-drill the holes on one side. What I really need to do is send them to Jose's old partner, Jim Moyers. That guy is an artist and I am sure he could do them right.
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Here are photos of my DCOE installation on the Harrington Le Mans. The fender brace is modified and adjusted up from original fender position. The clearance under rear DCOE from the steering box is the bigger problem. Had to grind half of the exposed left bolt head nearest engine on steering box off. This would give enough separation between carb and steering box so there wouldn't be any contact whilst revving engine. I fabricated the throttle linkage center manifold mount from a stock carb linkage mount. Linkage is tight and works fine. At least for the 500+ miles I have driven and the hours sitting in the shop getting dialed in. Finally, I would get short stacks so as not to make a tight squeeze at the fender ( Note: #2 cylinder feed). However, this may alter the performance of the DCOEs.

Expect to put many hours into this modification. Some good hours and some very frustrating hours what with the on again off again cycling of the manifold and DCOEs for fitting purposes.

I have a DGAS 38 on my Series III where it performed extremely well (definitely more power than the single Solex). However, when I recently got a Series IV with a newly rebuilt engine I put the 38 on the Series IV and an odd issue occurs while it is in idle mode. Will only idle while fully choked. Accelerate and it runs great with a lot of power. Go to idle and it needs full choke. Crazy. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
 

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alpine_64

Donation Time
For what it's worth i switched from my original twin Zenith setup which i had run from 1996 to the 2x Holbay DCOE's in 2003. Initially the tunning was a nightmare.. i used the specs that were most comon to the guys in the states and it just wouldnt work. Then i found a local guy who was well practiced in the dark arts of weber tunning. He knocked the mains down a few sizes.. fiddled the ballance and generally worked his magic and suddenly i can a car with great throttle reponse, amazing sound and more power (and much higher fuel consumption.. but that may have somethign to do with better sound and throttle response leads to a heavier foot)

The webers once setup are very good... I have had a few odd issues with them.. once had a the O rin in a soft mount crack giving m a very hard to find vac leak.. and had a pump jet foul up... i also had the car off the road for about 18 months with the carbs off. and the fuel turned to varnish on the flotas and bowls and needed a very good clean before they would run right again (my fault not the carbs!)

they are great fun.. look awesome and sound awesome.. after i got the tiger i thought of switching to a single DGV as the alpine is never gogi to be fast vs the tiger .. so why waste the fuel. I got the best original spec rootes DD manifodl i could and then had it polished up... but when it came time to fit.. i just couldnt bring myself to part with the webers.. they look and sound so good... hence they stayed:

The one thing i would add... the biggest help to setting the webers was getting a proper mechanical advance electronic ignition.. apart from helping with low down torque.. the timing being spot on madet much easier to set the carbs

original setup:


weber setup:


the DD manifold:


the original weber rebuild + install (order is finish to start):
http://rides.webshots.com/album/130330247tLjIkd

sunbeam alpine/rootes weber jeeting info + articles:
http://rides.webshots.com/album/131447490jhoqRD
 
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